Steroids and the Baseball Hall of Fame

by
Greek Giant

With the news that Ivan “Pudge” Rodgriquez is up for induction in the Hall of Fame it got me thinking: Major League Baseball and the writers who vote for players are engaging in a cynical practice of hypocrisy by banning or blackballing certain players and voting for others. In the tainted steroids era of Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire and Barry Lamar, nobody is innocent, not all are guilty.

Everyone is complicit.

We all enjoyed the show, even though many of us (reporters, players, managers, coaches, owners, executives) knew full well what was going on. Major League Baseball mortgaged its integrity for the immense wealth and popularity generated by the astronomical power numbers put up by many players and the inevitable assault on the records of Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth that followed.

To moralize about PED use after the fact is a joke. It’s a slippery slope folks. Does aspirin count? What about orange juice? Performance-enhancement of all types takes place everyday: yoga, weight training, psychological evaluation, scouting, nutrition, enchilada-eating, etc.

What if, in 20 years we find out that all this weight training in high school and college is the major culprit for elbows being blown out among young pitchers?

What if, in 25 years, we find that using smartphones contributes to memory loss?

My point is that there is much we don’t know and much we have to learn. Moralizing about the Hall of Fame is silly when racists and sexists are granted the full induction process. Does this mean beating a woman or hating a person for the color of his skin is a less egregious sin than popping a few pills or slathering on some magic white cream?

The use of performance-enhancing drugs, whether steroids, pasta, or sex, are as much a part of the Major League game as racism, misogyny and spitting. They aren’t pretty but we are wrong to dismiss them and moralize after the fact. Better to acknowledge these scurrilous and shameful phenomena in an analytical way to understand from whence they emerged and to prevent them from happening again.

I believe the game has changed for the better with the increased use of ironclad drug testing and tough punishments (Manny Ramirez, Ryan Braun, etc.) The question I am posing here is this: How should we evaluate potential Hall of Fame candidates without ironclad proof as to the players’ innocence/guilt? Is supposition enough? Does Barry Bonds deserve to be denied entry in the shrine of greatness because of his muscles and bad boy attitude?

My solution is simple: Ignore all steroids-related stories for ballplayers. Since there is little-to-no ironclad evidence as to the effect of the use of PEDs on the success of players like Rafael Palmiero and Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds or Tim Raines, vote them in as if the steroids issue did not happen. The Hall of Fame could, if they have not already, create a special exhibit or plaque writing about the story and the controversial period in baseball history.

Finally, the voting process is a joke. Reporters have too many grudges and way too many ideological and psychological axes to grind with regards to Hall of Fame balloting. They cannot be trusted. Who did not vote for Bob Gibson, Ken Griffey or Henry Aaron? Since no player has yet been admitted with a unanimous vote, this is a fair issue to explore. The Baseball Hall of Fame is about more than the game of bats, bases and balls. The Hall of Fame resides within the dreamland we call American culture. Indeed, one cannot separate its cultural contributions from American history. The Hall of Fame and its place within baseball transcends our beautiful game and deserves a consistent, fair, efficient, and transparent voting process just like the way we vote for Presidents!

Oh wait!!!!….

  • cabbie

    Great post GG!

  • Breckeroni says “They ALL Score”…..aka put them in who deserve to be in. EVERY decade(s) and generation was taking SOMETHING.

    http://www.sfchronicle.com/giants/jenkins/article/Jenkins-The-best-players-should-be-in-the-Hall-10863088.php

    • Bapah

      Just do it after they’re dead.

      • Well, Selig does looked Warmed Over…

  • DrLefty

    I completely agree that the HOF should simply have an exhibit acknowledging the era (e.g., The Deadball Era) and move on. Are they really going to have the best of a whole generation of players left unrepresented in the museum of baseball history?

    Also: The admission of Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa makes it absurd to exclude players from that era. Neither of those guys is a HOFer if they don’t turn a blind eye to the issue so that baseball could be a popular money-maker again. Why should the players they benefited from be punished when they’re not?

    • channelclemente

      Some politicians have recently illustrated nobody gets hurt in a beauty pageant, how’s the HOF any different. Let them all in, and make all those who juiced wear panty hose.

  • JStreet

    Good post, G. Bordered on political, but then what doesn’t. Thanks.

  • channelclemente

    I wonder if what folks read this blog. Dave Kagan has a new piece out today on ‘The physics of a barreled ball’

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-physics-of-barreled-balls/

  • channelclemente

    A lot of information, but pretty much the story on batted ball, launch angle, and spin. From the Current Hardball Times.

    https://i.imgur.com/MV9HV7d.png

  • GSDUbs

    Down to Shanahan or bust. Always the possibility Jed can still screw it up.

  • Scout Finch Baseball
  • Bapah

    I’ve thought for several years that the confirmed cheaters, should they get into the Hall of Fame at all, let it be posthumously. They’re honored for their achievement, just not in their own lifetime.

  • Scout Finch Baseball
  • Skweezplay55

    I appreciate your point of view, GG, and it’s beautifully written as always. I disagree though with your assertion that it’s a joke . . . because I don’t see it as a joke, it’s a real thing. Bonds’ numbers were obviously inflated — he’s the one that made baseball records a joke, and I’m sorry but — just my opinion — that’s not what the hall of fame is there for. As much as I loved him, he was a big part of screwing with the game. The Game of Shadows evidence is enough for me. For me, this is not the same as greenies. I’m sure there are a million holes in my logic, but that’s where I am on this.

    • Matthew

      But, Skweez….going down the rabbit hole with your theory that his “numbers were obviously inflated”… Do you know what percentage of players were supposedly using? What about their numbers? What of the possibility that it WAS an equal playing field among a large percentage of users?

      Barry Bonds was a superstar of amazing magnitude and results. He burned PR bridges. But he is so clearly a Hall of Famer based on a career of superior results in a muddy field of fellow players

      • Bapah

        Maybe he was as good as you say, just not record breaking. Why inflate his ego anymore? Let him in after he can get any satisfaction from it.

        • Matthew

          But he’s HOF worthy…I mean, Craig Biggio???

          • Bapah

            So he should get in, just why now? Wait until he dies and history will be rectified somewhat.

          • Matthew

            That sounds way too personal. You want him punished, I guess?

          • Bapah

            I’d prefer he wasn’t honored. Punishment isn’t in my portfolio.

      • Skweezplay55

        Maybe I’m all wrong — again, just the way I feel about it — but Bonds took steroids to a whole different “Hall of Fame” level. What percentage of other players did all the stuff he did? This list is pretty long, and then to hire a guy to do all the dirty work . . . Do you think a lot of other players took THIS MANY things and had a personal trainer to manage it all? Again, I think is a different level of cheating, and it is not deserving of inclusion in the Hall of Fame.
        From Wikipedia, Game of Shadows:
        The book is among the most damaging accounts of reported steroid use by Bonds. According to the authors, Bonds began using stanozolol, the same drug for which Ben Johnson tested positive after winning the 100 meters at the 1988 Summer Olympics, starting in the 1999 season. By 2001, the year Bonds broke Mark McGwire’s single-season home run record with 73, he was alleged to be using the following performance-enhancers:

        “The cream and the clear,” two designer steroids distributed by BALCO

        Human growth hormone allegedly sold on the black market by cancer patients to whom it was legitimately prescribed

        Insulin, which reportedly enhances the bodybuilding effects of growth hormone

        Testosterone decanoate, a steroid often nicknamed “Mexican beans” or “Red beans”

        Trenbolone, a steroid typically used in livestock, especially cattle

        Stanozolol, sold under the brand name Winstrol

        The authors also allege that at other times he used:

        Clomid, a drug normally prescribed for infertility used to restore serum testosterone levels following steroid supplementation

        Deca-Durabolin, a common steroid used by bodybuilders

        Norbolethone, a steroid developed for the meat industry in the 1960s, and tested for treatment of some conditions in humans, but never marketed because of doubts about its safety. This drug was the original foundation of “the clear,” which was reformulated at least twice.

        According to the book, Bonds was inspired to use steroids after watching McGwire’s 1998 home run record chase with Sammy Sosa. He began working with Greg Anderson, who would later be hired by the Giants. Anderson reportedly received the substances at issue from BALCO. He also kept meticulous records of Bonds’ program; the authors report that Anderson’s records indicate that Bonds took up to 20 pills a day and learned to inject himself.

        • Matthew

          No doubt, Barry was as insanely competitive as any human…I just feel that his career is worthy of the Hall, warts, syringes and all

  • Walter Guest

    Got a shock yesterday. It was my semimonthly visit to the doctor. We’d never really discussed my case but I was getting tired of the weekly chemo treatments. I’d had 36 and I wondered when it was going to end. I guess my impatience was aparant when I asked the doctor about that.

    “Well,” he said, “it’s hard to say, but I do know this, if we hadn’t started the treatment, you’d be dead by now.”

    That shut me up.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      36? Jeezus. Does the stuff even faze you by now? Which stuff do they give you anyhow?

      • Walter Guest

        Bothers me very little physically. I don’t know the name of the stuff they’re giving me, I only know it’s some kind of poison.

    • Noce

      A local man is being written up as an experiment with gene (? not sure how to spell it) therapy for the success in his cancer treatment. Talking to him last week he said he was not going to make it then they tried this new process and he is now cancer free. His case is being review in a number of the med journals. Maybe something to look into.

      • Walter Guest

        I am committed to my current treatment. I hope they keep abreast of new discoveries.

  • Since Sports and Comedy Unites Us – I thought I would share a Funny You tube RE POTUS.

    **This is a fan made parody imagining if Mr. T was running for the 1952 Presidential Election. It’s just a fun parody. It is not meant to be political, or taken seriously 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XriXDtfqCg

  • channelclemente
    • SurfCity

      And commuted the sentence of Chelsea Manning.

  • Peter Johnson

    Gregor Blanco signed a Minor league deal with Diamondbacks .

  • DrLefty

    The stupid 🐍🐍🐍 took our White Shark. 😢😢💔💔

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Maybe he’s got a shot there – depth chart has Pollock, Peralta, Tomas, Drury, Owings, Brito, and some Hazelbaker guy. Owings and Drury are primarily infielders.

      • DrLefty

        I knew he wasn’t coming back…and I wish him all the best. It just makes me sad. I love that guy. Two World Series…the perfect game. A great Giant, never to be forgotten.

        • steve k

          if he gets into a game at at&t, i want him to get the loudest and longest standing ovation ever..

          • JStreet

            And Cain will lead it.

          • John Myhill

            It is sad to see him go. You could see how much he loved being a part of the team even if he wasn’t always treated with respect. Well he can always say to himself that he was the leadoff hitter in the postseason for a team which won the world series.

        • channelclemente

          Considering the odds, that perfect game is a bigger deal than the WS.

    • Bapah

      Is there a team called the Swans?

      • DrLefty

        Those are snakes. Look at the tongues.

        • Bapah

          With my eyes they look like fowl. Too bad it has to be in the division.

  • channelclemente

    Fun to play with graphic of gasoline prices around the world.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/#20164:United-States:USD:g

  • channelclemente
  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Ugggh. So much trouble in the world. Edinson Volquez, who lost his father prior to Game 1 of ’15 W.S., lost his 25 y.o. brother after a stabbing in the D.R.

  • Noce

    I have some of the same concerns GG has on the subject. What is PEDs are allowable and which should be banned. Skweez gives a great description below of Bond’s regiment of PEDs that is certainly more then Aaron being quietly accused of taking greenies or uppers. By the way no one has ever substantiated the claims against Aaron or anyone else.

    I from time to time induce a state of ketosis as part of my training plan. It use to be hard to do but now I can take a powder from a bakery and get there in 45 minutes. Is that considered a PED? No I will never be tested for a major sports event, if I am then maybe you should look at the PEDs as miracle drugs, jk. We are advancing quickly in the field of nutrition, mobility training and strength training.

    What Bonds has done may indeed be over the top or maybe not. But cheating has always been part of baseball and if you remove anyone who cheated from the HOF a number of big names would have to be removed. What was a PED yesterday may not be one in a few years.

    • channelclemente

      There is a huge difference between an anabolic steroid and other so called PEDs. Comparing teststerone to amphetamine is just silly.

      • Noce

        The point is the use of something. PEDs were not available in the 60’s and 70’s who is to say there would not be those who used them if they were available.

        • Moooooooooose

          What difference would it make if it could be judged that someone would have used them if they were available? I don’t understand how that can be relevant to any discussion.

          • Noce

            It’s not relative to my original point of view, but to CC assertion you can’t compare levels of so called cheating in each era. My point is there is currently, was in all past eras of baseball some form of cheating. And it benefited some enough to get into the HOF. Rules change for each era and the steroids era management looked the other way and the long ball put butts in the seats and brought baseball back from a low point after the strike. If your going to allow it then you should allow those players who did well in that era to be with the best players from each era.

          • channelclemente

            Steroids change the animal through a change in gene expression, stimulants don’t change the animal.

        • Surf Maui

          I am–they all would have!

    • paul in p.v.

      What’s ketosis?

      BTW, last friday I had a couple cortisone shots in my two old arthritis-ridden knees, and it was like a (I know, temporary) miracle.

      How the heck can they not call that a PED?

      • Noce

        Disclaimer, I am not recommending this to anyone. Ketosis is a state at which the body has an extremely high fat-burning rate. Even the brain runs on fat, via ketone bodies. These are energy molecules in the blood (like blood sugar) which become fuel for our brains after being converted from fat by the liver.

        I have or had Metabolic syndrome which was being controlled by meds. I wanted off of them and studied different protocols. A doctor who was also a marathon swimmer and also had Metabolic syndrome isolated himself to test ketosis. I read the results and did it myself for 3 weeks. I have cut out 1/2 the meds and looking to get rid of the rest before the end of the year. Currently I am testing a powder to see how it works.

        Read both sides of the issue there are people against and for. I test things for myself.

  • channelclemente
    • JStreet

      How many roads must a man walk down..

  • channelclemente

    Pitcher Mike Garza discovers a few realities about arguing with smart women he missed growing up. He now has ‘scars’.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mlb-player-mansplained-birth-control-to-jessica-chastain-twitter-had-none-of-it_us_587cd7cce4b09281d0eb9c21

  • Moooooooooose

    Unfortunately, it’s not as simple as you portray it, Greek. Who loses out in this scenario? It’s the players whose numbers are considered borderline but it’s all but certain they didn’t use PEDs. Dale Murphy would be my prime example there. While the Rafael Palmieros of the world benefit.

    • JStreet

      Then blame Bud, not Greek. When you guys start talking it up against the entire world of baseball for fostering this affront to your sense of fairness, I’ll be more likely to agree.

      • Moooooooooose

        I’m not blaming anybody. Plus I’m not understanding your second sentence at all!

  • DrLefty
    • 610nm

      It is tough thinking about Blanco, Vogey, and Timmy in other uniforms.

      • DrLefty

        It really is.

      • John Myhill

        Blanco and vogey already have been and timmy’s not playing anyway. Romo’s going to be the hardest for me. He’s never been anything but a giant.

        • paul in p.v.

          Mee too.

    • Noce

      I was there, so was a friend of mine sitting right above where Blanco made the catch. I asked him afterwards about the catch he was getting a beer. Some guys just don’t have the luck.

      • channelclemente

        How good you get a beer late in a perfect game? SMH.

        • Noce

          We never left our seats, we don’t usually anyway. My son wanted to tell people around us to shut up in the forth when they were talking about the no no.

          I have the picture someone took on my cellphone of me and my son framed with both tickets in it. I gave it to him. But he has to keep it at my house for now.

      • Surf Maui

        It’s not luck, it’s stupidity. Who goes to get a beer during a perfect game? Even if it was the greatest beer in the history of beer, or it came with a $1,000 cash prize. The question remains, who leaves a perfect game to get a beer?

  • DrLefty
  • channelclemente

    Wil Myers with the Padres gets 6 years, $83 million. The baseball world is officially insane.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/01/13/wil-myers-padres-contract-extension/96555930/

    • Giants54

      Baseball has doled out a lot of crazy deals, especially for guys 30 and over. This one isn’t that outrageous relative to those given his age and the numbers he put up. Great power GG defense speed (28 sb’s). Avg should improve…Not a bad gamble. The big money doesn’t kick in until 2020.

      • paul in p.v.

        I would totally give Myers that if I ran the Gints. This kid hasn’t even approached his talents.

        • totalfan62

          I agree. That’s fair market value–maybe even a good deal for the Padres–given the current marketplace.

          • John Myhill

            It does sound reasonable. On the other hand, my instinctive reaction to any move the Padres make is that it’s probably stupid.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        About the same deal as Belt and Crawford.

  • channelclemente

    GG, we forget the HOF is a baseball reporter/journalist creation. Strictly speaking it’s their HOF.

  • 610nm

    In my opinion, baseball should be the same in 2017 as 120 years before, so that we can easily compare the best players against the best players, independent of the year they played.

    But, just to pull out a half dozen examples or so, that is totally impossible: night games after installing lights, Tommy John surgery extending pitchers careers, differences in training regimens, Bob Gibson’s lowering of the pitchers mound, artificial surfaces, the relief specialist, the DH in the junior league, and very recently computer-assisted defensive shifts. The game does change, and little of this can be undone except for banning the DH and artificial turf.

    Seen in this light, the steroid era is just another example of a fluctuation in the measurable statistics. An unseemly one, to be sure, but it seems a bit harsh to say that no steroid-impacted player can get in the hall. I’m OK with Barry making it when it happens, as the delay by the writers from his first year of eligibility speaks pretty plainly. The only one I’d ban from the HOF would be Selig, because he certainly let the steroid problem linger longer than it should have.

    • DrLefty

      And how about that, until 1947, only white athletes were allowed to play in the major leagues? You think that might have made before-and-after comparisons harder? Does any player pre-1947 deserve to be there, not having faced the best competition the sport had to offer?

      • 610nm

        Oh, lord yes, how did I forget that. Plus international players now coming here too.

    • paul in p.v.

      Totally. Ban Slelig.

    • GiantFrog

      Add going from a 154-game season to 162 and hanging an asterisk on Roger Maris.

  • Surf Maui

    Any museum who does not have the all time leader in hits and the all time leader in home runs in it, is no All of Fame. If Bonds and Rose are not in it, the HOF should also get rid of any Bonds and Rose items too, since by their standards it too is tainted.

    • paul in p.v.

      Right on, Surf.

  • John Myhill

    Another article by brisbee on the giants lack of hr hitting. Missing as usual is the observation that the giants have managed to win 3 world series recently with very little hr hitting. The giants wrc+ last year was 98 as opposed to 99 in 2014 and 101 in 2012 (which was basically the result of bad babip luck). That just wasn’t the problem offensively. The problem offensively was the lousy clutch, which was the result of too much reliance on walks.

    • Peter Johnson

      What are you talking about, if the ball is hit in play, it is luck to get a hit, 9 players have a chance to catch it, HRs over the fence have is good for babip !

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Actually, HRs over the fence are not part of the BABIP calculation. Inside the park HRs are.

        • John Myhill

          Also true.

      • John Myhill

        That’s nice except it isn’t how to win championships. You can watch teams which hit a lot of homers, I prefer to watch teams which win championships.

        • steve k

          i think that’s referred to as a BOOM!!!

      • One catcher
        4 IF’s
        3 OF’s – the OF’s have a chance to jump the wall and make a grab, but yeah

  • totalfan62

    My OKC Thunder are finishing a three-game California road trip tonight vs. the Dubs. We beat Sacramento Sunday, lost to the LA Clippers on Monday. Our beastly center Steven Adams suffered a concussion vs. Sacto and won’t play tonight. Great.

    I’m happy for KD, as he looks happy and he’s a good fit with the other great Warriors players. Thunder are still a decent team, and it’s not *all* Westbrook, but we’re probably gonna get smoked tonight. Hope it’s a good game.

    • cynic

      I hope Adams is OK. I really like that guy. Unlike so many other athletes, he didn’t say one thing about the Draymond incidents (which he would have totally been justified in doing) and he’s got a great sense of humor about everything.

      • totalfan62

        He really does. He’s low-key, humble yet witty–just a seven-foot tall New Zealand dairy farmer who learned that he was good at basketball and could make a lot of money playing it. He’s one of those guys that you dream “if I was seven feet tall, that would be me!”

    • Matthew

      I’m with Cynic: I really like Steven Adams…a lot. I do hope he fully recovers.

      It may be true that the Thunder are more than Westbrook….but his stat chasing efforts seem to get ESPN all giddy

      • totalfan62

        That’s the irony. It comes within the flow of the game. Our bigs block out well, and a Russell rebound is an immediate fast break. Adams and Kanter are both space eaters inside. Russell penetrates and dishes for easy lay ups/dunks. If you watched them as much as I do, I think you’d agree.

        Westbrook is by far the best player on the team, but Presti and Donovan are constructing a viable and contemporary NBA roster. This season and next, probably #4/#5 playoff seed, but they will be solid going forward.

        Sure do miss watching KD play Durant basketball in OKC colors. Smooth and sweet.

        • Matthew

          I just always felt that KD could never, ever, ever be his best on a team “run” by Westbrook. Russ is way too much Rose and not enough Curry. I certainly think Russ is a supreme talent, and his will to win is off the charts…but as an outside observer, i have seen way too many late game take-overs in which he destroyed the teams chance to win. That Kobe-Wannabe method works for a guy like Kobe when there is a Shaq (or other star) and could(should) have worked with KD.

          So, for me, the Smooth and Sweet didn’t seem to mesh with the frantic crash style of Russ….and whoever else they bring in. Russ will need to change for them to win when it ratchets up in the post season

    • Keep’n It Real

      I’m glad you mention KD looks happy.

      I’ve noticed him smiling more…and being more personable in interviews…but my only comparison is seeing him in a much smaller sample size with OKC in nationally televised games and games against the Warriors.

      As the season goes along, I like the fact that more background about his decision is coming out. For example, a story where he was counseled that if he gave one more year to OKC, the Warriors may fill that opening with someone else…so if he truly likes that type of game…he needed to make the move right now.

      I’m not intending to pile on Russ…since I previously posted I don’t think he’s the NBA MVP…but I think it’s unfair people in OKC were dogging KD. If he re-signs with OKC, Russ could have easily used his FA status to sign elsewhere and leave KD hanging. I think KD’s exit made it easier for Russ to re-sign, because it means he’s “the guy” and the offense has to cater to his needs; not another super-star. We’ll never know, but I would’ve bet on it.

  • John Myhill

    If the giants aren’t going to go after another left fielder, it seems to me that they should try to resign pagan to some kind of contract not exceeding 2 years. He was actually above average among major league lfers last year and could still make a significant contribution. I seriously doubt that parker is going to amount to anything anyway.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Jarrett Parker has a 139 wRC+ in 205 MLB PAs. So regression is due. Last year it was 110 in 151 PAs. That could be the extent of the regression or it could move closer to 100, or below, or perhaps right around 106 which is where Pagan and Duvall wound up last year. That would amount to something.

      • John Myhill

        But he’s a terrible fielder, strikes out 29% of the time, and without BABIP last year would have hit about .220. I’m just not impressed with HRs.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          He also draws a lot of walks. 2017 may be his last chance to really make it. Hope he is working hard this winter. At this point his competition is limited. Beat out Mac and a couple other guys and the job would be mostly his. But yeah, could stand to get the K rate closer to 25%, or Belt territory.

          • John Myhill

            I’m not impressed with walks either. The important thing is to be able to get the big hit

          • John Myhill

            I only like Williamson because he looks like he MIGHT develop into a very good defensive outfielder last year, once he got over his jitters he made some great plays.

        • Peter Johnson

          I noticed Slappy !!!

    • Keep’n It Real

      Not worth the drama. When you don’t participate in the Willie Mac award ceremony in 2015 (Giants tradition for all players) and your team members question your decision not to give it a “go” in the playoffs in 2016…you can go be a drama queen elsewhere.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Where will Pagan and Romo sign??? Enquiring minds want to know!

        • Anti-Lasorda

          Romo has Anaheim Angel all over him….

        • Keep’n It Real

          I honestly don’t care. Both guys diminished their status as Giants in my eyes last season (Pagan started in the late 2015 season).

          Conduct yourself with class like Javier Lopez and appreciate the opportunities your days with the Giants afforded you. Don’t act like you are bigger than the team…or deserve something because of your past Giants contributions. I think baseball is speaking loudly on how valuable they think both guys are at this stage of their careers.

    • Giants54

      No f way

  • PerSpeier35

    I heard Krukow discuss this topic yesterday. He is of course quite generous with regard to inducting players, nearly everyone “absolutely” deserves to be in there. He mentioned Will Clark who apparently has dropped off or will drop off the ballot. I disagree on that one, guys such as Clark and Canseco underperformed their ability and that hurts their chances. I do agree with his point that Lee Smith belongs.

    • cynic

      I do agree that Will is probably short of the HOF, but I put more value on a guy who is really great for a short time than someone who accumulates stats by being average over a long time. Will was ROY and finished top 5 in MVP 4 out of his first 6 years. Probably not long enough, but it’s clear he doesn’t have the total stats because he eventually broke down.

      This is also the problem with not making some conclusions about the effects of steroids. If you compare him to Palmeiro I think it’s pretty obvious what made them different.

      • Anti-Lasorda

        Will’s short by the numbers because he retired early when he still had game in the tank to take care of his disabled son. If the writers and pundits want to hold that against one of the better hitter in the game from 1988 – 1993 since he doesn’t have the counting stats well, so be it. But to me, WC#22 is a HOF husband and father and that’s more than being inducted into a museum filled with wife-beaters, cheaters and racists. Like Dale Murphy, they were both the toughest ABs in the game for a good stretch, and universally admired for the way they played and conducted themselves off the field. They are the type of people baseball should be embracing in it’s hallowed Halls not trying to exclude. And you wonder why the HOF process is getting so much scrutiny….. sheesh.

    • Keep’n It Real

      I’m going to have to disagree with you about Clark “underperformed their ability”. This is the guy that made a 100 loss team start believing they could win games. He was at/near the top ofhis position for many years. He chose not to do steroids in an era that some would say 70% of the players were doing it. Lastly, it was his back…and his desire to help raise his autistic son…that prevented him from adding to his career stats. He was a stud for the Cardinals during his final playing days…as the PED-user Mark McGwire sat on the sidelines hurt.

      He may not be a HOFer, but he’s a HOF Giant and there was no winning Giants team for Bonds to come to without him.

      • Anti-Lasorda

        Where do I begin my standing O?

      • John Myhill

        ‘Underperforming your ability’ in those days is a negative way to say ‘didn’t use steroids’. Shame shame.

        • Peter Johnson

          Look up his Stats 1n 1992 and 1993, .270-.280, 13-14 HRs, RBI 70s

    • Matthew

      Will is in the Lincecum Conundrum: changed the teams fortunes quickly, didn’t sustain as hoped. Whereas Lincecum’s shooting star resulted in titles, Will’s did not (This is not meant to jumpstart Efrain or TO)

      • Keep’n It Real

        Yes…but Will changed the Giants culture into a winning culture.

        The Giants went to the WS in 1989 (with Will, against the syringe brothers)…and again in 2002 (after Safeway dude banished Will) before Lincecum ever got to the bigs.

        Timmy was great. He helped the team achieve something they couldn’t get done in 1989 or 2002, but they weren’t perennial losers when he got here.

  • DrLefty

    Baseball America’s new top-10 prospects list for the Giants:
    1. Beede
    2. Arroyo
    3. Shaw
    4. Reynolds
    5. Suarez
    6. Blach
    7. Gregorio
    8. Fabian
    9. Garcia
    10. Duggar

    • crawnik

      Where is MyGuy Slater rank?

      • DrLefty

        Slater doesn’t seem to get much love on these lists. He had a great year between AA/AAA last year. I’m surprised Blach made the list–he’s one that doesn’t get much love, either. He just goes out and gets it done.

        • Anti-Lasorda

          Which means he’s a sure fire SFG All-star. Just like Duffy, Panik and Crawford before him.

        • Peter Johnson

          That’s why these lists are useless, Arroyo had a down year in 2016 and gets a pass, because he is young and was a 1st round pick, and Slater and Blach have great years , but are older and were not top picks , so get no respect .

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Shaw should be lower, Slater could slot in around #5,6,7. I’d have Coonrod up there as well and this is also against the grain. Aramis Garcia should be an omit too.

        • DrLefty

          Yep, I think it’s just draft pedigree with Garcia at this point. He had an injury-marred year and didn’t show much. At least Shaw produced while he was still in the Cal League.

          • Peter Johnson

            Shaw produced in AA as well after he got used to the Pitching in 2nd half . Ryan is anti Power so will never give Power guys credit .

          • DrLefty

            5 HRs in 232 ABs in Richmond vs. 16 HRs in 270 ABs in SJ. SLG also went down from .544 to .484. Still, you’re right; those are not terrible numbers for Richmond. But the numbers from SJ are what put him into the top-100 prospects at midseason.

            I assume he’ll start again at Richmond? Big year for him.

          • Peter Johnson

            He was awful at Richmond the 1st month he played in AA .595 OPS, after that .830 OPS .

      • Walter Guest

        That’s just foolish to have Fabian on the list and no Slater. Fabian is an 18YO in rookie league with an obvious weakness in his batting line: his walk percent is under 5%. That means he swings at many pitches out of the strike zone. Slater, on the other hand, is almost a cinch to be in the majors at some point next year. That is a prospect!

        • Peter Johnson

          The prospect graders and hounds like Ryan love young fast players that can not hit, they seem to think that they can learn to hit but you can not teach speed, the Giants wasted Millions on a player like this and then traded him, MR.Fox, who never hit but was fast, so Gianrs paid him more money then any prospect in Giants history .

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            You usually sound like an idiot with your remarks about what others think.

          • Peter Johnson

            You are one, I only sound like one !!!!

          • DrLefty

            I actually think BoEv did a pretty great job of turning that Fox signing (which may well be a bust) into 3 1/2 years of Matt Moore.

          • Peter Johnson

            Duffy and another Minor leaguer went in that deal too, the point was, fans were waiting years for the Giants to land a big money International signing, and they overpaid for a fast unproven player, and traded him a year or so later .

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          Let me know about Fabian outside of rookie ball. Same for Heyward.

        • DrLefty

          Agree, especially on Fabian. I mean seriously, he’s played in the Rookie League and he’s 18 years old and a top-10 prospect? Based on what?

          I was glad to see MyGuy™ Duggar on the list, but Slater should be there, too.

    • Skweezplay55

      If the Giants have five guys better than Blach, that’s pretty encouraging.

      • DrLefty

        Everyone seems pretty excited about Andrew Suarez. Giants like him, scouts like him. Eager to see how he does in spring training (I assume he’ll get an invite) and in Sacramento, if he lands there.

    • channelclemente

      That’s some serious shuffling.

  • crawnik
  • dgg

    Mark McGwire lied to Roger Maris’ family and used them as props. McGwire does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Not ever.

    • Anti-Lasorda

      How much of that was McGwire, and how much was Bud?

      • dgg

        McGwire is responsible for all of his lies to Pat Maris and the Maris children.

        • Anti-Lasorda

          That is one point of view, but my impression was that a lot of that was done at the urging of the MLB commissioner’s office. McGwire didn’t go and seek out Pat Maris on his own and ask to do the dog and pony. He was coerced by MLB. What is he supposed to do in that situation. He says no, he has to explain why…… it’s a no win for him. If you want to hold it against him he chose to play his part in the play instead of walk off the stage, so be it; but, I for one think it’s more shameful that Uncle Bud put him in front full well knowing EXACTLY what was going on.
          ~YMMV

          • dgg

            Mark McGwire is not a victim.

          • Matthew

            He’s an accomplice. Bud was the ring leader on that one

    • Noce

      I’m not trying to inflame you as I see you have strong opinions on the subject. I got lambasted by Roy Firestone when he was in Modesto and I had the chance to talk with him one on one. I suggested McGwire should be in the HOF raising the attention to baseball after the strike. Between Sosa and McGwire’s run for the record interested was renewed in a sport their fans were mad at because of the strike. I likened it to Ruth bring baseball back after the Black Sox scandal.

      Personally I think McGwire is a P**** even from the days in Oakland. I don’t like the way he handled his family obligations ect. But I believe he had a positive effect on baseball fans at a low point in history. That is why I would consider him for the HOF.

  • DrLefty

    Speaking of KD, Ethan Strauss has an analysis of the evolving relationship between him and Steph. First-world problems for a team that’s 35-6, to be sure, but it’s an interesting read, I thought.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18498479/crash-brothers-stephen-curry-kevin-durant-finding-their-way-nba

    • cynic

      Great article and whether it was planned or not, I think it was the right thing to do to sacrifice to make KD feel better at the start, then be more selfish later as Curry is doing.

  • Anti-Lasorda

    Buds in, La Russa’s in, f*ck Paul Molitor is in. Vote them in based on how they were among their peers. Canseco and Caminiti were proven not to be liars. 70%+ were using some sort of illegal “enhancement”. To deny the ones you found out about and let the ones who were sneakier get away with it is male bovine defecation material… *Piazza, Pudge, etc.* So in my view even Palmerio, McGwire, Sosa and Rameriez should all get in; eventually.

    The era should be looked at reviewed and treated like the converse Deadball Era and so noted in Baseball’s history museum. The #72 ball hit by Barry Lamar the centerpiece of the exhibit and baseball should be honest with how much it publicly turned a blind eye while every trainer and GM in the league knew EXACTLY what was up. To do anything less is a farce and hypocritical to say the least. Leave you’re moral arguments for another building you visit on the weekends; which day depending on your faith.

    ~YMMV

  • totalfan62

    Bautista re-signs with Blue Jays for a little more than half of what he said he should get..baseball gods doin’ work.

    • Anti-Lasorda

      Joey Bats is a pompous ass and a clubhouse nightmare, but the man can hit. It’s another example similar to Bonds not being offered a job post 2005 that makes you think we may have a collusion lawsuit brewing. Considering how much inbreeding are in MLB front offices nowadays it might not be as hard a case to prove as you might think.

    • dgg

      Good. Now we don’t have to read any more stories or comments about how the Giants should acquire Bautista.

  • DrLefty

    Fangraphs has a whole article about how awful AT & T is for HRs. It basically argues that the Giants play “a different game” in their home park–AT & T suppresses HRs even more than Coors Field encourages them. How about them apples?!

    The poster child for this frustration?–You guessed it: Brandon Belt.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/att-is-the-home-run-killer-of-the-millennium/

    • Kramerica

      I’ve been saying it since the day the park opened. It’s the most beautiful park in baseball but right center field is a gimmicky joke. I know everybody seems to love “triples alley” and the design is “old school” and not cookie cutter. But it’s f@#$%^& ridiculous to hit a ball 415 feet to right center, in thick air, and have it turn into an out. Not to mention the walls are nearly 20 feet high. LF and CF are fine, but right center field should be moved in. IMO it’s not proper baseball to have a ball crushed nearly 420 feet and have it turn into an out. Moving the fences in would not only be fair, it would create more seats and the Giants could make more money!

      I’m sure many on here will line up to tell me how much they love it and it should be that way. It’s ok, we can agree to disagree. But from Day 1 of AT&T I’ve always had a problem with right center field. Not too many Barry Bonds walking around to make it look small.

      • Bapah

        As kids, the weakest players were always put in the outfield. It’s not quite that bad in MLB, but at ATT, being a good baseball player still counts in this outfield.

        • dgg

          Which is one of the many things that makes watching baseball games at AT&T Park thrilling. Defense in the outfield counts and makes for spectacular plays.

          • DrLefty

            See Blanco, Gregor.

          • John Myhill

            But realistically, the Giants haven’t focused on great outfield defense to take advantage of it the way for example the Royals have. I remember seeing Jason Heyward smash himself up making a great catch in triples alley in May (or did he barely miss it? I don’t remember) and thinking wow, it would be fun to have him playing right for the Giants no matter how bad his hitting is.

          • Bapah

            I’d agree with that.

          • HaakAway

            HP8 has made some good catches too.
            The odd dimensions do create a Home Field Advantage more than most parks because they are so unusual in RF/CF.
            Standardizing all MLB parks to be the exact same is the only way you really eliminate this and I know you are not saying that. But park differences are another reason Baseball is unlike any other sport where the fields, courts, etc. have to be identical.

          • John Myhill

            I absolutely don’t want standardization, it’s completely the wrong idea for baseball. And I like that having an unusual field gives you more of a home advantage. Essentially penalizing teams for having no imagination in their park design.

          • HaakAway

            I think I get it … quirky is good but Willie Mays Field (as proven by Fangraphs®) is too extreme in their CF/RF gap. I still say to keep it and live with it; but I have a chainsaw and I could fix those Cartoon Cars in 30 seconds.

          • channelclemente

            AT&T just drives the saber crowd nuts. The BIG gap in the entire approach is understanding how to deal with teamwork, synergy, and game strategy as a component in baseball. No statistical relationship that exists explains much more than about 40-50% of what happens on a baseball field. AT&T just amplifies the deficiencies of sabrmetric models of the game. Having neat tidy linear minds, saber guys just hate nonlinearity in The Game.

          • John Myhill

            Hmm, didn’t think of that as an explanation. But they looove the red sox and you can’t get weirder than fenway.

          • DrLefty

            I agree. It’s odd that they haven’t prioritized good OF defense. I remember in 2012 when they had Blanco playing RF, Pagan playing CF (and having a great year), and Melky playing LF. Now, that was pretty good defense for the park. But far more often they’ve put water buffaloes in the OF.

          • Matthew

            Listen to Lefty, Dr.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            Triples are one of the more exciting plays in the game.

          • channelclemente

            LOL, the park factor for triples at AT&T is greater than 1.3. All I can figure is that many want a better labor market in baseball for slow, fat guys who need looottts of time to get around the basepaths.

          • Scout Finch Baseball
          • ….My favorites:
            Standup or sliding triples
            Turning sure single into sliding double
            Beating out infield hit because runner ran hard out of the box
            RF throwing perfect one hop throw to third or home to get the out
            CF sliding or diving parallel to the ground turning a line drive triple or double into an out

          • My favorites:
            Standup or sliding triples
            Turning sure single into sliding double
            Beating out infield hit because runner ran hard out of the box
            RF throwing perfect one hop throw to third or home to get the out
            CF sliding or diving parallel to the ground turning a line drive triple or double into an out

        • Peter Johnson

          What ?

          • Bapah

            Where’d they put you?

          • Peter Johnson

            I was the fastest player, and hit the best , I played CF.

        • Kramerica

          Sure, no argument there. But can’t “being a good baseball player still count in the outfield” if right center field is 385 feet? I’m not advocating turning it into Camden Yards, but having more normal dimensions is not going to all of sudden diminish outfield defense IMO.

          • Bapah

            Why change it? Is baseball at ATT not enough entertainment for you? I’m not a proponent of changing the game to suit some fans’ preferences. They played pretty good baseball games at the Polo Grounds.

          • Peter Johnson

            Let’s go back to the dead ball era, you would love it !

          • channelclemente

            That’s silly.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            We suffer Peter lightly, I suppose.

          • Alvise Contarini

            Without Pete this blog wouldn’t be the same.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            It’s not the same without The Oracle either. Love him or leave him.

          • Alvise Contarini

            The Oracle who?

          • Lots of messy stuff going around on his job.

          • Alvise Contarini

            What does that mean?

          • The City of San Jose is one of the largest cites around and they have a wide variety of residents. Recently a drug lab using hazardous and flammable chemicals and butane was busted and it helped eliminate a potential explosive situation in one neighborhoods.

            Sometimes when stuff like this goes down our Officers have to work tons of long hours on duty.

          • Alvise Contarini

            Thank you, ClutchUp.

          • DrLefty

            I love my Giants and I love my Baseball Cathedral, but being honest, some of those games at AT & T, especially at night, can be kind of deadening to the soul. How many times have we seen the Giants rake on the road, come back home, and be unable to score or get a clutch hit? It’s almost turned into existential dread for me.

          • John Myhill

            But 1-0 games decided by a homer which barely clears the fence are just stupid. Remember game 1 of the nlds?

          • HaakAway

            Reminds me … Chevron’s Cartoon Cars in LF is more frustrating to me since they are totally random. Just ask JT Snow about playoff frustrations with them.

          • channelclemente

            It does frustrate fantasy baseball devotees. With AT&T you can’t cookie cutter a teams makeup. Your complaint about low offense using soccer low scoring as a comp just tells me that you devalue the other aspects of The Game.

          • John Myhill

            Yes, i detest soccer. For me, to say that something is ‘like soccer’ is a profound insult. Unfortunately israelis for some bizarre reason like it, including my girlfriend’s son who insists on playing it with me.

          • John Myhill

            However, i wasn’t complaining about soccer being low scoring. I was complaining about deciding a game with penalty kicks.

          • GSDUbs

            Think JT Snow in the playoffs v Mets. How dumb was that?

          • John Myhill

            The only really exciting ‘home run derby’ game I remember was game 2 of the nlds in 2014 (the 18-inning game). Their was a huge wind blowing in, the home-plate ump had an enormous strike zone, and homers kept getting blown down so nothing was going to be cheap. Belt absolutely crushed the homer (I love the way he just looks and drops his bat at :04), now that was a way to decide the game because it was out of any park in the world.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBfwWl6MmYI

          • totalfan62

            That’s my boy!!

          • John Myhill

            A recent fangraphs article called belt ‘the weirdest offensive player in baseball’ and it’s true, but he’s our weirdo.

          • Kramerica

            It has nothing to do with the entertainment aspect for me. It has to do with fairness. I don’t think hitters should be penalized for crushing a ball 415 feet to right center field. Simple as that. The park is plenty big enough as it is. People act like bringing in the fences in right center will turn it into a home run heaven. I disagree. I think doing so will normalize the home run rate a bit and AT&T would still rank among the lowest in total HRs.

          • Bapah

            I’d prefer players use their brains and alter their play to where they’re playing. That seems like what the best (or even good) players do.

      • John Myhill

        I like the size, the somewhat uneven dimensions are fine, I like having a distinctive stadium, and I like that there aren’t any ridiculously cheap HRs. My only complaint is I’d like the walls to be lower in places. Crawford’s double in game 4 of the nlds was just ridiculous.

      • DrLefty

        On the other hand, without that exact spot being the way it is, we wouldn’t have Blanco’s iconic catch in Cain’s perfect game, arguably one of the greatest moments in Giants franchise history.

        Overall, though, point taken.

        • John Myhill

          Exactly. There’s nothing as dramatic as running into triple’s alley to rob someone. And triples are just more exciting than homers.

          • totalfan62

            The triple is the most exciting play in baseball. Can’t talk about triples without once again saying: “Willie Mays’s glove…where triples go to die.”

          • GSDUbs

            I just hated all those cheapies Babe Ruth hit in Yankee Stadium, didnt you?

      • channelclemente

        Reminds one of the Polo Grounds, doesn’t it. In 1954 Mays caught that ball at ~420 feet. Think about it, and what your POV might have done to one of the greatest feats in baseball history. I love this field. It’s the greatest in baseball.

        • GSDUbs

          And the flip side in the same series…Dusty Rhodes and the short fence.

          • channelclemente

            They fixed the Rhodes issue at AT&T.

          • GSDUbs

            Well sorta…not so much right down the right field line to maybe the first arch. JT Snow v the Mets? Did the fans in Pittsburgh complain about Forbes Field? How about Yankee Stadium before it was remodeled? Should have built a bandbox when we had a chance I suppose. Seriously, are we (they) really complaining about AT&T?

    • Noce

      Every time I read one of these it makes me think about what Bonds accomplished. Yes there are the PEDs but also the skill to take advantage of the few good pitches he was thrown. Done in AT&T the field where HR’s go to die.

    • John Myhill

      Actually the article points out that Belt has generally hit better at home than on the road. It isn’t so simple as that.

      • Bapah

        I don’t think Pete would agree.

    • channelclemente

      Don’t you love a field that’s DH proof.

      • HaakAway

        Now that is the best point that can be made.
        Anything that keeps the DesignatedHalf of a baseball player out of the NL is great to have.

  • Walter Guest

    Here’s a guy who always cheers me up:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnJL3eEDN3Y

    • crawnik

      I used to watch his show late night on KTVU back in the late 70’s/early 80’s. He is sorely missed. Funny as hell.

    • steve k

      me and my dad used to watch his show and laugh our asses off. very good memories. #ripdad&bh

  • Bapah

    Off topic warning:

    A little item stuck away in the daily small advances in cancer therapy.

    After her brain cancer became resistant to chemotherapy and then to targeted treatments, 26-year-old Lisa Rosendahl’s doctors gave her only a few months to live. Now a paper published January 17 in the journal eLife describes a new drug combination that has stabilized Rosendahl’s disease and increased both the quantity and quality of her life: Adding the anti-malaria drug chloroquine to her treatment stopped an essential process that Rosendahl’s cancer cells had been using to resist therapy, re-sensitizing her cancer to the targeted treatment that had previously stopped working. Along with Rosendahl, two other brain cancer patients were treated with the combination and both showed similar, dramatic improvement.

    • HaakAway

      Sending to a friend … thanks.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      If you go off topic again, I’m probably going to read it or click it and think about it. So choose your words and topics carefully. Got it, Buster?

      PS – two more days until ….

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Apocalypse_vasnetsov.jpg/300px-Apocalypse_vasnetsov.jpg

      😉

      • Matthew

        We suffer Scout lightly, I suppose

        • Alvise Contarini

          I think that that “we” is rather preposterous, as far as I am concerned.

      • Bapah

        I thought of most here, you would have found this promising news.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          You bet. But I went off topic from your topic.

      • Alvise Contarini

        Are they The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse perhaps?

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          Cancer sure seems like one ubiquitous pestilence.

    • channelclemente

      Chloroquine is a potential Orphan Drug, btw. There is a huge outcry that Big Pharma is abusing the orphan drug statute and squeezing out off patent drugs like this one. For christ sake Humira is an orphan drug and make 8-10 billion a year.

      • Bapah

        Yes they have and it should be a crime.

    • Alvise Contarini

      Thanks Baps, a friend of mine will find your info of vital value. I’ve already sent this to his doctor.

  • channelclemente

    Michael Kopech, a White Sox prospect, just hit 110 MPH on a radar gun.

    http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/01/chicago-white-sox-prospect-michael-kopech-110-mph-pitch-video

    • John Myhill

      Holy shit

    • earlytimes

      Paging Dr Ulnar.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      I wonder what Craw could hit on a crow hop ( a Craw-hop?).

      Not that maxing out is in everyone’s best interest.

      Anyhow, after the trade with the Red Sox, the White Sox hope Kopech is the next Syndergaard.

    • Bapah

      Did you read the John Dean article in the Atlantic?

      • channelclemente

        Yep. You might take a look at the article in McClatchy this morning on investigations, if interested. It’s a bombshell, IMO.

        • Bapah

          Do you have citation for the article(s) you’re referring to?

      • Alvise Contarini

        I read it on your advice. It’s frightening non only for you but for all the world.

      • channelclemente
  • Alvise Contarini

    So you Americans arrived there 10.000 years earlier than assumed until now.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0169486

  • Warriors say Klay Thompson is questionable for Thunder game tonight depending on if he gets back in time from a family matter.

  • KNBR and the Giants Snag a good one from So Cal
    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sphs8p

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      is he taking place of Lee Hammer?

      • Maybe the OTHER Lee – Lee Jones

      • DrLefty

        Lee Jones, who retired at the end of last season.

  • Mike Silver’s word is usually (not always) GOLD. Good thing for Jed

    http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/report-kyle-shanahan-expected-accept-hc-job/

    • earlytimes

      Well, he’s not the only one reporting this. And with McDaniels out, seems the only logical choice. The idea Cable was being seriously considered says a lot about the York’s.

  • Jack Morris should have gone to the HALL a Long Time Ago
    https://twitter.com/tedjrobinson/status/821148315743961088

  • channelclemente

    The decades long mystery about DB Cooper, airplane hijacker, has new life breathed into it.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/clip-tie-holds-new-clues-about-hijacker-d-b-cooper-n708001

    • From day ONE – I told anybody/everybody – that he had made it but our Govt. Does not want egg on their face thus they denied it for decades.

      • channelclemente

        He changed clothing before he put the chute on and jumped.

        • And “salted the meal” by placing some money around the area …

  • channelclemente

    How MLB colluded to squelch Tim Raines career and ultimately failed, but nonetheless slowed his entry into the HOF.

    http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/01/tim-raines-hall-of-fame-montreal-expos-collusion-1987-owners-mlb

    His first day back.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4UclkYmr7g

  • channelclemente

    Interesting article about Tim Raines where Buster Posey somewhat surprisingly pops up as a comp.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-would-a-modern-tim-raines-look-like/