What Is an MVP?

by
Greek Giant

With Mike Trout (A.L.) and Kris Bryant (N.L.) winning the Most Valuable Player Awards in their respective leagues yesterday now is a good time to open up the debate about what the award really means and what makes a player “most valuable”. There is a cool FAQ on voting on the Baseball Writers of America site that addresses some of the questions but not all of them. Wikipedia’s MVP page is excellent as well. The truth is there is no clear cut definition in the BBWA or MLB rule books about what constitutes the criteria for the MVP.

Did you know there was once a rule in MLB during the 1920s when previous winners were ineligible? Incredibly that cost Babe Ruth numerous potential MVP wins!

From 2001 to 2004 the National League version of the award was nearly re-named the “Barry Bonds Owns the NL MVP Award Bitch” but that recommendation was eventually scrapped after a debate between the engravers and BBWA writers who were concerned about having to type the full name for posterity and their collective inability to find an appropriately fantabulous acronym.

I will let you nerds research the rules and regulations for the award over the years. What I am interested in exploring is the very hazy and subjective concept of value in today’s game. Let’s remember that the MVP award is for regular season achievements only and voting is supposed to be completed before the start of the postseason.

This year’s winner in the American League, Mike Trout, had another Troutian year of excellence. The Angel of Los Angeles of Anaheim is approaching Mickey Mantle-esque heights of baseball glory in his still young career. The award was his second and there was little to no controversy surrounding his selection though the Angels finished 21 games behind the Rangers in fourth place in the standings. In other words: that was a bad team and traditionally the MVP winner comes from a first place team because of the popular theory that the award must be related to team success and an individual player’s indispensable role for those victories.

Reading the stats, both expanded and traditional, for Mookie Betts and Mike Trout, an argument could easily have been made that Mookie Betts would have been a more deserving winner in 2016. There have been many controversial selections over the years for this most prestigious award. There have also been ten pitchers who won the MVP and Cy Young Award in the same season.

I’ve always been fascinated by the concept of the “Most Valuable Player” because of its subjectivity and because there are so many ways to measure value to a team nowadays. In the old, pre-advanced metric days, usually the player with the most awesomest RBI and homer totals won. Today things are a bit more nuanced and complicated.

The Giants have been blessed with a wealth of NL MVP laureates, from Buster Posey in 2012 to Barry Bonds owning the early 2000s and all the way back to Carl Hubbell and of course the Say Hey Kid.

To end this meditation on the MVP award I will pose some requests for our devoted Giants community:

  1. Name your top 3 worst MVP choices.
  2. Name the best MPV season in each league, all time.
  3. Which Giant will be the next to win the award?

 

  • Breckeroni once met Barry Lamar

  • Ernie Johnson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBByn24qzg

    Final numbers
    * 231,556,622 eligible voters
    * 46.9% didn’t vote
    * 25.6% voted HC
    * 25.5% voted DT

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      You know, silver lining, maybe we’re being temporarily spared the worst that is to come.

      If Hillary had won, maybe all the gun toting nut job “patriots”, would have followed through on their promises of armed rebellion. They walk among us and between the coasts.

      • The Oracle

        Assuming that the tiny percentage of nuts who talk about armed rebellion in any way represent the vast majority of those who voted for Trump is exactly the kind of elitist thinking that helped Trump win the election.

        • channelclemente

          Do you have any thoughts for those talking armed suppression?

          • The Oracle

            What do you mean?

          • channelclemente

            You know precisely what I mean.

          • The Oracle

            If you knew exactly what you’re talking about, I wouldn’t have asked the question.

          • channelclemente

            You opened the issue, now fill in the blanks of that frankly goofy comment you made.

          • The Oracle

            I meant what I said. The line of thinking that brands all Trump supporters as racist nut jobs is the same kind of simplistic and dismissive thinking that helped to stoke the frustration and dissatisfaction that got Trump elected.

          • channelclemente

            I don’t think Trump supporters are necessarily racist, but some do. Like Andrew Anglin..

            Andrew Anglin, editor of the neo-Nazi site The Daily Stormer, wrote that Sessions’ nomination, along with the appointment of retired Gen. Mike Flynn as national security adviser and Steve Bannon as Trump’s chief strategist, is “like Christmas.”

            “Of course, I was thinking of Sessions for either Secretary of State
            or Defense, but I think Trump is making a point by putting an aggressive
            anti-Black racist in as AG,” Anglin wrote. “It’s a corrective measure,
            after Obama turned the Justice Department into the Black Panthers.”

            But even Anglin acknowledged that the very features that make
            Sessions an attractive pick to neo-Nazis might make Senate confirmation
            challenging.

            “The reason he might face trouble? Because he’s a racist and most of
            these RINOs (Republican in Name Only) in Congress are filthy cuck
            traitors to the White race and the GOP,” Anglin wrote.

          • paul in p.v.

            It’s not the “Alt-right.” It’s white supremacism, pure-and-simple.

          • Matthew

            That’s absurd.

          • channelclemente

            Yes it is, but it is an assumption of fact that that group is perpetrating. If Trump were serious, he would stomp it out without any doubt. In fact, he wouldn’t have Bannon as his sidekick. If you read Sessions testimony to Congress in the mid 80s when he was attempting confirmation as a Federal judge, one can see from whence the enthusiasm comes. I think you’ll find the absurd becomes theater as we go forward.

          • Matthew

            Ban on was a stupid choice, in my opinion….I expect even if Trump tries to stamp it out, it won’t stop. There is a level of anger that no decisions will quiet.

          • channelclemente

            There are no redos going forward. He now owns this ‘Pottery Barn”. He better find a way because by adoption, these folks are his constituents.

      • Matthew

        Scout, I love ya….but this kind of post is one of the reasons I’m not around much anymore.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          maybe you should have heard some of the pre-election interviews conducted by NPR.

          Please tell me you reject any “alt-right”/white nationalist appointments to the administration. Please!

          • Matthew

            I certainly do, but I need to KNOW that about them rather than trust “news sources”. I’m very wary of some choices I hearing , but the way they paint Sessions isn’t the whole story….that is my giant issue. Everything, every decision, is going to be immediately ripped regardless. I wish everyone would breathe.

            This “gun toting nut job patriots” that you project is just starting a fire.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            Good. We need people like you who support change through Trump, but reject the racism that helped win the electoral college. “Patriots” was the word that was quoted, and this refers to that select group of the population that has been getting armed and getting ready for whenever they deem their time to act.

            I don’t think the people will be “breathing” and accepting any time soon. So you’ll just have to get used to the reality of severe disappointment, frustration, and fear.

          • Doughnut

            I don’t think it was racism that played a big part in electing Trump. That is something the media perpetuates. I think it was a severe dislike of Hillary Clinton and establishment politics. People are fed up with the corruption and hypocrisy of our political system and Trump harnessed that.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            And a severe dislike for Obama. Racism is a harsh word for some of what many were feeling about losing the character of their communities.

          • Doughnut

            Many Obama voters didn’t vote for Clinton…she had very low turnout which is why she lost.

          • PerSpeier35

            At least part of the result was a referendum on illegal (and even legal) immigration. Right now our immigration policy is basically whoever shows up here or overstays their visa gets to stay here, that is our policy. We all know that the system has to be fixed. There are many strong and valid arguments why illegal immigration is bad for the country and none of them have to do with racism. Yet there you are joining the crowd and calling everyone a racist who supported Trump (or basically whoever is opposed to illegal immigration). I did not vote for him but I am opposed to our country not being in charge of determining who comes here or making stupid policy such as a lottery system to bring in so many of these people and so many of those or for allowing people to come here solely for the purpose of having an American citizen child. I think this is the main reason Trump got the job.

          • Matthew

            Well put

          • Matthew

            I agree, Doughnut. I have no idea how this will work out, but this was mostly a “revolt” against establishment, but “yikes”.

          • channelclemente

            The establishment is us, not some theoretical bogey man.

          • Matthew

            Tell the voters.

          • channelclemente

            What do you know, your one of the elite. 😉

          • Doughnut

            Agreed.

          • channelclemente

            They are about to discover, that is the nature of politics, is what most people would call hypocrisy and corruption. What gets labelled that by many, is usually called compromise.

          • Matthew

            I hope and pray that most who support the changes clearly reject racism… And, anecdotally, I believe it to be true. It seems to be a go-to bullet for disoriented journalists

      • paul in p.v.

        Get a grip. Those people are cowards.

    • Doughnut

      Great stuff by Ernie as usual. Like him, I couldn’t and didn’t vote for either one. But I was hoping after Trump won, he would try and be more inclusive and send the message that we are in this together and move on from the nasty rhetoric and drive it home.. Doesn’t seem like that has happened unfortunately so far.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        “We are in this together. Oh by the way, I’d like to introduce my white nationalist staff member…”

        • Doughnut

          Another thing I hoped would happen is he would surround himself with competent trustworthy people. Doesn’t seem like that is happening either

          • PerSpeier35

            I think he’ll redeem himself and appoint Ann Coulter as Secretary of Something.

          • Doughnut

            Haha. The voice of reason and fairness lol. That woman is nuts.

          • Lunch_Box

            Don’t even joke about that!

          • paul in p.v.

            Jared and Ivanka. Aces.

      • PerSpeier35

        With the two bad candidates I was hoping that this would be the year that a third party would become more prominent but neither Johnson nor Stein moved the dial. I guess it will take a reality TV or movie star to ever put a third party on the map.

        I listened to some fill in gal on KGO last night on the way home and she lambasted this woman caller who admitted she wrote in Bernie Sanders, said it was a wasted vote and that’s why Clinton lost. Really? In a winner take all state where Clinton won by several million votes?

        • Doughnut

          Doesn’t seem like a 3rd party candidate can win with the way the rules are set up right now. They dont get enough media time, debate time, and aren’t taken seriously. Its a shame because I think both the Democrats and Republicans are bad for the Country. They both take money from the same special interests. I wish we had no political parties and everybody was an independent..that or 6 different parties all with equal power.

          • PerSpeier35

            The media making a candidate reach 10% in the polls to participate in the debates is a disservice to the electorate. Especially in a personality driven match up like we just had, could have used a good third party candidate to maybe get some discussion of topical issues instead of the noise we got with Trump and Clinton.

          • Doughnut

            Yup. Its also hard to get on all of the ballots across the states if you run as independent/3rd party. System is biased against it.

          • dgg

            It seems to me that a third party candidate did win the election.

          • paul in p.v.

            The Manchurian Candidate.

          • John Victory Faust

            The Siberian Candidate

    • channelclemente

      Those aren’t final numbers, I believe votes are still being counted.

    • John Victory Faust

      Pray like Hell, Ernie, pray like hell.

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    #3 Which Giant will be the next?

    JD Martinez of course 😉

    Or Buster Posey.

    Or how about one of the Brandons?

    Or that 40 HR, 110 RBI season from Mac Williamson may do the trick !

    Or some kiddo playing stickball in the streets until the sun goes down….

    • I will say the latest drafted catcher a year ago. BOOM!

  • DrLefty

    40-man roster additions due in 18 minutes. Former Giants farmhands Luis Castillo (Marlins–for McGehee) and Keury Mella (Reds–for Leake) have been added to their teams’ 40s. Congrats to them, especially MyFormerGuy™ Mella!

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      subtract 9 minutes … due in t-minus 9 minutes !!

    • dgg

      Sergio: What a terrific happy smile!

      Timmy needed an orthodontist in childhood.

  • 610nm

    Let me suggest Joe Panik as a possible MVP. Our indubitable TO might not think much of that, but Joe is clearly a very good fielder, hit steadily in his first season (this year was concussed), and could reasonably be expected to add power over the next few years.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      The incorrigible TO might say that Gold Glove Joe needs to hit more.

      How about Joltin’ Joe goes off in his MVP season: .322/.385/.500, 21 HRs, batting title…

      • 610nm

        It is going to be fun to watch Joe’s development, as I am pretty sure this year’s hitting can largely be blamed on the concussion. Joe seemed to be hitting the last couple weeks.
        Man, why oh why to we have to wait 80+ days to spring training?

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          Why oh why do I have to enter all this data? Isn’t there a machine I can run my notebook through and the data will appear on Excel spreadsheet? I’ll enter a couple pages, then peak over here, enter more, peak…

          • Bapah

            Yes, there is.

        • John Myhill

          He also had a lot of bad luck on babip

          • steve k

            to be fair, he had a high babip his rookie season..

    • paul in p.v.

      He reminds me of a 2B named Joe Morgan. I think he won a couple MVPs.

      • steve k

        back to back, if memory serves me..

        • paul in p.v.

          Ayup.

  • To answer the GG’s question

    I think it is time for MLB to have a Player of the Year to go along with a Most Valuable Player/Teammate …

    • radicalpro

      I agree. That will address two issues with the MVP voting from my POV:
      1) Stats vs. “value”: There’s a contingent that want to give the MVP to whoever has the best stats or highest WAR. Then there’s those that take “valuable” to a more literal definition, e.g. intangibles, presence, being the “heart and soul”, etc in addition to the numbers. Having a Player of the Year would satisfy the stats crowd.
      2) Pitchers as MVP: I’ve heard that pitchers should not be MVP because they have the Cy Young award. I don’t think the Cy Young was ever considered the Most Valuable Pitcher, it just went to whoever was considered the best pitcher, period. But by definition of MVP, pitchers are eligible. Whether a pitcher who starts 30 something games can be more valuable than a position players who starts 150 is a different argument but I never liked the thought that pitchers should not win MVP just because of the existence of the Cy Young award.

    • Efrain

      that’s plain dumb. No need for more awards.

      Fans care more about this crap than the players.

      MVP award is fine as it is.

      • It is not dumb, you just choose to always be au contraire – when others with baseball experience come up with valid suggestions. Your a Giant Fan with an acute east coast personality.

  • Those darn boyz will be boyz locker room quotes
    @Mr_KevinJones

    49er defensive back Eric Reid on Tom Brady: “If I can get my hands on one his balls, that would be huge for me…. Wait don’t quote that.”

  • channelclemente
    • Scout Finch Baseball

      How bout Rubber Souls, Ringo?

      • channelclemente

        Never right add on material for a cartoon.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          write?

          • channelclemente

            Proof you got the point. It’s like a check digit.

  • PerSpeier35

    I don’t pay much attention to the awards but my vote for worst MVP ever was whoever won the NBA MVP the year Rick Barry led the Warriors to the championship, averaged 30 PPG and only came in fourth place. I’m sure whoever won it had a great season but Barry (not Lamar) not winning it was a joke.

    • GSDUbs

      Off the top of my head, I think it was Bob McAdoo of the then Buffalo Braves. I don’t think I’d put him in the ‘worst’ category but Barry probably lost due to his warm relations with the press.

      • PerSpeier35

        I looked it up – you are correct. I would have guessed Jabbar but McAdoo led the league in scoring and his team won 49 games. Barry got the finals MVP so good for him on that.

  • radicalpro

    Don’t know enough about the history of MVPs but Terry Pendleton in ’91 comes to mind as worst.

    Future Giant MVP: Arroyo!! (unfortunately nobody on the current squad comes to mind)

    • Efrain

      That was a down year when no one player had a superior season. Still, Pendleton was sort of the straw that stirred the Cards those seasons. Can’t take that away from him. He won the award many moons ago, seems pretty trivial to pointing it out now.

      The MVP should go to the guy who impacts his team and the league the most, specially when there is no clear cut player who has a season for the ages. Not that hard to comprehend.

      • radicalpro

        “Name your top 3 worst MVP choices.”

  • dgg

    Does character have any role in MVP selection?

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Here’s the Atlanta Braves Top 20 prospects by John Sickels. This is arguably the best farm system in baseball, with unprecedented depth of young talent, especially on the pitching side:

    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2016/11/18/13681446/atlanta-braves-top-20-prospects-for-2017

    “QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS

    Grade A prospects are the elite. In theory,
    they have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Theoretically,
    most Grade A prospects develop into stars or at least major league
    regulars, if injuries or other problems don’t intervene. Note that is a
    major “if” in some cases.

    Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers.
    Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending
    several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

    Grade C prospects are the most common type. These
    are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a
    question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to
    get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don’t make it at all.

    Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. A
    Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive,
    while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role
    player.”

    • Matthew

      Baseball. Yay. Atta babe

    • The Oracle

      Ok…I’m trying to concentrate as hard as I can to understand…so you’re saying that “A” is the best, then “B,” and finally “C,” and that sometimes “A” prospects don’t turn out well, but sometimes “C” prospects can turn out well? Thank you so much. The rest of us had no concept of the idea of grades, because nowhere else in life is such a system used. Maybe tomorrow can you explain where the sun rises and sets, because I keep getting confused.

    • 2holehitting

      So a grade C ballplayerin A ball could have a better future than a Grade B ball player in Triple A.

  • DrLefty
    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Thank you. Baseball. Yay. Attababe! 🙂

      So yeah, who is this Orlando Calixte? Cool name, which actually sounds familiar from Royals prospect lists 5 years ago.

      And so now who is exposed and set to be the next Joe Biagini? Tyler Rogers and ???

      And what’s low down on my former guy, Chase Johnson? Is his wing alright?

      • DrLefty

        Rogers is the biggest risk. Shouldn’t have given up four runs yesterday, I guess. Bit surprising that this bullpen-challenged team would risk losing a AAA reliever.

        • Doughnut

          Especially a side armer…pretty surprised if they dont keep him. I thought Bochy liked those unorthodox throwers over the fireballers. We might be able to use him

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            I’ve seen him live – and his side arm sling is submarine, but also lower velocity – like 82-83ish.

  • John Myhill

    I think an interesting way to define an mvp is the player whose contribution in the regular season made the most difference in terms of the team’s regular season results.

  • DrLefty

    I must have missed something (busy week). Why are the Celtics fans so mad at Durant? Because he didn’t sign with them, or something else?

    • Matthew

      Nope…just that he didn’t choose Boston.

      • DrLefty

        Thanks

  • channelclemente
  • channelclemente
  • Michael Scott

    Perhaps someone has already noted her passing , but Gwen Ifill was a wonderful reporter on PBS, hosting Washington Week and the PBS News Hour, with Judy Woodruff. If ever newscasts could be described as “peaceful “, it would have been those that Gwen Ifill hosted. She was so calm, a remark from a colleague summed up her work ” she brought light rather than heat to issues of importance to our society.”
    She passed away on Monday. She was just 61.

    • paul in p.v.

      R.I.P.

  • Efrain

    I still laugh Haak thought Duffy was in Bryant’s league. lolz

    • HaakAway

      Hey … Be nice.
      Their rookie years Duffy out hit KB on the road; that is just what Duffy did.
      And we extended that bet to five years; MyGuyDuffy is a proven Late Bloomer.
      See you in 2021.

      • Matthew

        That’s the year he will be barking about how absurd it is that Belt won the MVP, and his 120 RBI’s were only because Panik kept getting on base.

        • 610nm

          I like how you think!

  • The Oracle

    Kaepernick has never voted. He has never even registered. He couldn’t even make the effort to vote for Obama. But I’m sure it’s a lot of fun to get all the attention that came from the incredibly heroic act of kneeling.

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article114803073.html

    • JStreet

      Maybe he wasn’t for Obama. A little presumptive, I’d say.

      It’s apparent he’s gotten you’re attention. That’s good.

      • The Oracle

        His theme is how incredibly racist the USA is. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to assume that someone who views things the way Kaepernick does would have been gratified to participate in the election of the first black president. The idea that Kaepernick started anything is ridiculous. His issue was at the forefront of discussion before he ever took a knee. He’s a fraud.

        • Matthew

          I’m humble enough to know I have no idea what it’s like to walk in the shoes of a police officer.

          I’m humble enough to know I have no idea what’s it’s like to walk in the shoes of a African American.

          I don’t think he’s a fraud. I also don’t think he’s a gifted communicator. But I hear his message. Yet….

          To me, what would show me that he wants to make things better would be to organize a discussion with police so that he can understand both sides of the situation. Stubbornly standing on one side isn’t serving his purported purpose.

          • DrLefty

            My first reaction to your comment was that Colin Kaepernick doesn’t know what it’s like to walk in the shoes of an African-American, either. But that’s probably a bit unfair of me. I think “probably not a gifted communicator” IS fair and even generous. He wasn’t one when his thing was being the surly too-cool-for-school star QB. And he isn’t one now that he’s taking on a more socially engaged persona.

            I do agree with The Oracle that Kaepernick never voting dilutes the impact of his protest. Grappling with entrenched, systemic racism in our society is a difficult proposition that will require a lot more than a few high-profile moments on a Sunday. But the one thing everyone CAN do is exercise their right to vote. And behind all of the analyses of the recent election, the most significant fact is how many people chose not to. That’s the real news. So Kaepernick’s one of those many? It makes me a lot less interested in anything else he has to say about this country. He’s right there next to the Bernie Bros who didn’t vote because it wasn’t their guy and then were out protesting the election of Trump.

          • Matthew

            Well put, Dr.

          • Moooooooooose

            Imagine the impact he would have towards his agenda if he inspired a million people to vote instead of taking a knee.

          • DrLefty

            Exactly. Thank you.

          • Michael Scott

            “Imagine the impact he would have towards his agenda if he inspired a million people to vote instead of taking a knee”
            Probably no impact.In fact, the discourse on his actions has shed much light on the issue. That’s a good thing no matter which “side” one is on. I’m quite sure that CK never thought that his ” kneel down” would provoke such reaction, I think it was just a “look at me” thing. But it exploded and now, why not go with it? It was an accident but he did get a conversation going.

          • Moooooooooose

            The conversation has been going for quite some time.

          • Michael Scott

            So it got re-ignited. That’s pretty frigging obvious.

          • Moooooooooose

            LOL!

          • Michael Scott

            I’d doubt that many protests look at every side of an issue. They wouldn’t be *protests, if they did.They’d be sort of like a kaffeeklatsch.

          • Matthew

            But Kaepernick’s stated goal is to “make things better”… As a supposed team leader ( insert joke here) I would think it should be natural to understand the steps towards achieving that goal.

            I disagree that protests are only considered protests if they stubbornly hide on one side

          • Michael Scott

            I hear you. I noticed the anti-Trump protesters with signs that said ” On the other hand….”

        • Bail-o Yo Ho.

          Better a fraud than a failed lawyer gone mad against the Universe.

        • Michael Scott

          It’s about to become more racist. Congratulations.

    • Keep’n It Real

      I didnt hear the 95.7 interview (only the interview synopsis right sfterwards), but Chris Simms…who is doing very well in the NFL media world…mentioned the word “blackballed” with regard to Kaepernick. What I took away is NFL owners dont want any part of his non-football stuff, so when he leaves the 49ers…getting a gig will be extremely difficult; if not impossible.

      Then he’ll go down the “it just proves my point” path, but what he’s neglecting to realize is he is doing this on…his…job. No employer has to tolerate that stuff, so they also don’t have to hire and pay him…even at the NFL minimum.

      The Star- Spangled Banner obviously is a factor in this, but the bottom line is no employer has to hire someone that brings Kaepernick-like baggage with them.

      Finally…I thought it was interesting that Bolden…who used to play with Kaepernick…didn’t include him in the group that recently went to Capital Hill.

      • Michael Scott

        “What I took away is NFL owners dont want any part of his non-football stuff, so when he leaves the 49ers…getting a gig will be extremely difficult; if not impossible.”
        If he can play, he’ll get hired.

    • BALDHEADSLIKK

      Kap is a phony! Grew out the afro to seem more legit and all of a sudden he decides to take a pro black stance oh please!!

  • DrLefty

    The Giants added a fifth guy, Miguel Gomez, to their 40-man roster yesterday. Gomez is Dominican and has been in the system a few years (he’s 23 now) but never played in a full season league until 2016, which he spent mostly in Augusta and finished in San Jose. He had a .880 OPS and 17 HRs across the two leagues, notably 9 of the HRs in only 172 ABs for San Jose.

    Gomez started in the system as a catcher but this year played mostly 3B and some 1B. I approve of this add. Gomez may be a bit of a late bloomer, but in a system that’s gotten thin on infielder prospects, might as well take a longer look at him.

    Now Orlando Calixte, I’m not seeing it, but at least if they’re going shopping in the dumpster, they got a young guy (24) this time.

    In any event, the Giants’ 40-man roster is now full, so if they add anyone, someone will have to go. Right now it’s 24 pitchers, 2 catchers, nine infielders, and only five outfielders (unless you want to count Calixte or Kelby or Belt…).

    • Bapah

      I smell another Biagini happening this year.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Is that a baked breakfast good, or something else?

        • Bapah

          It’s more an Italian haggis than anything else.

      • HaakAway

        Tyler Rogers is this years Bee- a-genie.
        Biagini finished at 3.06 ERA and 1.30 WHIP… SInce that it the AL with the “Dumbdowned Hitter” he was equivalent to WIll Smith for the Giants. And the Jays did not have to give up Bickford for him.

    • Michael Scott

      They’ve retrieved some pretty decent retreads from that dumpster, Lefty.

      • DrLefty

        Yes. But then there have been a lot of others with no tread left on the tires (to stretch your metaphor until it screams).

        • Michael Scott

          I’m sure that we can list the successes and the failures. Overall, I’d advise Evans to keep diving- it’s paid off.Big time.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Gomez torched the Sally as an older prospect (wRC+= 167), then was much more pedestrian (109) as more age appropriate prospect in the Cal League. His OBP came way down, but not as a result of walking less – he’s a free swinger. Also, the strikeout rate took a significant jump, but was still below 20%.

      As for Calixte, I dig the name. And I dig that he played 32 games in CF last year in addition to playing some shortstop. He’s got speed, he’s got a modicum of pop, his K rate is under control and he’s versatile. Nice add for Sacramento, may help out the big club.

      In addition, they safeguarded three guys that can help in the 5th-7th innings with Slania, Johnson and Moronta. Lots of bullpen depth on the 40 man.

      Well done, Giants.

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Mmmmmm, Costco Columbian on a cool morning…

    If Brett Gardner and Andrew McCutchen are available, anybody think the Giants will have interest?

    Seems the trade market could really open up this winter with guy that have 1-2 years left on the contract. I you don’t mind losing a top prospect or two, it’s a way to avoid the free agent landmines. Multiple options could drive down the acquisition cost a bit as well.

    Gardner could serve as an alternate leadoff hitter – he also won Gold with the Glove.

    And you know Cutch still has something left to prove. Could be the most ultimate buy low ever!

    • Michael Scott

      What’s happening on the J.D. Martin front?

    • DrLefty

      Looking at the new 40-man roster is sobering. Five (5) outfielders. Three of them are unproven as major leaguers (Hernandez, Williamson, and Parker). The other two are slowed by aging and injuries (Pence and Span). That’s…yiiiiiikes, that’s REALLY thin.

      They have 24 pitchers on the 40. It feels a little odd to say that the top priority is another bullpen arm(s) when the outfield need is screaming so loudly. Glad Evans is the one making the big bucks to solve this.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Can you smell that trade coming? Pitchers for that outfield bat.

        Then I bet they’ll add minor league contract for an OF, another Gorkys – and start counting Calixte as an OFer on the 40 man.

        • DrLefty

          Maybe Slater gets a serious shot in spring training, too. Evans spoke well of him in his recent podcast with Alex P.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            He’ll get a nice run in AAA before he’s considered. As long as there’s bodies ahead of him, it’s Sac-town.

      • Michael Scott

        Just shuffle them back and forth, as always.

    • Matthew

      Put some Cuervo Gold in that Fine Colombian

  • Matthew

    In the classification model, Guy Fieri would place Sicker’s Bar and Grill under “Dive”…but I get my departure breakfast here every time https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13f5035016219f243dac09f5df263884c1cff45d44e4266ff6fc034c3324a2e5.jpg

    • DrLefty

      Are you in O’Hare? Rick Bayless’s tortas stand (Terminal 1, I think) is amazing. They have breakfast tortas, too. Yummmmm

      • Matthew

        Still in the loop… I like hanging with the locals before I leave…

        I’m flying Virgin which is in 2 but I might have time for the walk!

        • DrLefty

          You could get a torta and save it for the flight. So good.

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Wading through the Red Sea, with no Moses at my side, but getting along just fine with the Egyptians…

    I live in a red state within the larger blue state. I’m used to this. Up here in the hills, democrats and progressives are rare birds, but they do exist. We have just always kept out of the politics and accept our neighbors for how they are and what they think and even what they might say when they suspect no one is really listening. For instance, the guys at the hardware store. I know they’ve been anti-Obama and they’ve been anti-government meddling for years. They believe in the NRA and they would prefer that all the walls of regulation come tumbling down. The “I don’t believe the liberal media” bumper sticker was affixed to the Dodge truck years ago.

    But I like these guys in spite of our differences. I support their business, I want them to stay in business because it is darn convenient when I need plumbing supplies or nails or chain oil; so I try to get whatever I can from them and not from Home Depot. In my mind, goliaths like Home Depot are the enemy and the local hardware store is my ally.

    So the other day, picking up supplies to repair the water heater, a customer and the owner were talking about the protests; how it’s their right to protest, but it’s not their right to block the freeway. This is true. It was just funny when the owner made a crack about the temptation to gun it with the gas pedal if his lane was blocked. I just laughed to myself. To the owner, who’s working 6+ days a week, people who have the time to block the freeway, who may be receiving welfare, are not his cup of tea. So stepping into his shoes, I can see the animosity.

    I also work with some red voters. My boss included. And it has driven me nuts that someone with a PhD in a science related field would believe that global warming/climate change is some kind of liberal conspiracy with Al Gore to blame. Another co-worker also proudly boasted the “I don’t believe the liberal media” on his…

    wait for it…

    Toyota Prius.

    But I have worked with this guy for years and we have much more in common then things we don’t, even though he’s a Dodger fan. So when it was time for this co-worker to be honored at a retirement potluck yesterday, I wrote and gave the best darn loving, appreciative speech that I could. I even managed to weave a bicycling metaphor into the speech, because the guy used to ride his bike to work and has participated in this crazy Fresno event that is 155 miles long with 15,000 feet of climbing. Much respect to that and for all his hard work.

    So can we all get along?

    • Moooooooooose

      No

      • DrLefty

        Agreed. This is a very, very divided and polarized country. Anyone who thinks we can “all just get along” by simply wishing for it is kidding themselves, regardless of which side of the divide they’re on.

        Scout’s story speaks to the more realistic hope that some of us can get along with some of us. But all of us with all of us? Nope, not possible.

    • Matthew

      Of course ( sorry, Mooooooose)

      If your post is an example of the discourse. I’m aligned with the possibility that things can go bat-shit crazy. But I naively hope for certain things nudging along the right way more than they spiral the wrong way. Things like Apple saying they are considering building I Phones in the US. Things like Ford deciding to build an assembly plant here and not Mexico. Those are real decisions that mean real jobs that mean hopeful signs. Along the way, wrong policy decisions will occur. My heartfelt belief is the aggrieved media will feast on them like a Pablo on a buffet platter. But I hope and believe people care so much about this country that they will LISTEN as much as they bark, scream, etc.

      I truly understand each and every persons concerns with this new crazy reality. but I also truly believe much of the wild predictions are premature and way too wild.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        I do find your “wait and see” and “I don’t believe the liberal media” stance unsettling. As if past actions and behaviors have no bearing on the present and future. You’re a good guy, I hope you can see that some of the real “bad hambres” are being awarded positions of power and influence.

        • Matthew

          Where did I once say “liberal media”? It’s basically all media that I distrust.

          I see some bad hombres. I believe Obama hurt himself with some “bad hombres” in a different direction, but he mostly rose above some of them. I’m hesitant to think Trump can do the same. It’s an important time, no doubt. But, I also think you are guessing on the outcomes.

          • Michael Scott

            “I’m hesitant to think Trump can do the same”
            But I’m sure that Vice President Ivanka can.

          • Matthew

            I thought Baron was the VP.

            Everything I knew is wrong……

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            Here ya go, bud. I’m going for a run. You still pound the pavement and work those shin splints?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uf_rTLqj0o

          • Matthew

            I can’t…my two ruptured disks bark louder than John Oliver.

          • PerSpeier35

            You can’t get them fixed? I had the works done on mine and it did the trick. Granted it was only one.

          • Matthew

            I’m still on the Health Care Treadmill…and trying to avoid surgery

          • PerSpeier35

            I did everything I could to avoid the surgery – and suffered for a year doing it. PT, traction, chiropractic, nerve drugs, cortisone injection, nothing helped till they removed some of the ruptured disk and made more room. Best wishes to you, I know what you are going through.

          • Matthew

            I’m getting closer to that clean up plan by the day, SS….

        • Michael Scott

          Yeah, we’re off to a good start.

        • Matthew

          BTW, you certainly aren’t in a “wait and see” mode

          • Michael Scott

            You haven’t seen enough?

          • Matthew

            No. I know you vehemently disagree with my hope. But, as I said above, decisions like Ford and Apple…extrapolated by 100? That’s good no matter what.

          • Michael Scott

            So how do you think that Trump has anything to do with any of that? I presume that you have heard of his lie about saving jobs because he kept that Ford plant in KY? In fact, it was never going anywhere in the first place.
            Anyway- we’re both on the ” White Side” here.

          • Matthew

            Wait…my Portuguese heritage got my dad detained at the border when I was a kd! I demand a reclassification….( it was really his skin color, and the fact he answered “Sonora” to the border patrol)

          • Matthew

            I think he can influence some business decisions on outsource based on corporate tax cuts. Those of you not in a manufacturing company ( that is about 35% of our revenue) may disagree with it, but in my bubble, it will mean increased headcount to increase revenue generation. And, his plans on trade will help us, too. Yes, that’s a selfish view. With real, tangible consequences.

          • PerSpeier35

            It’s a difficult proposition to bring back any industry that has gone offshore. I work at a company that produces footwear. 99% of footwear is manufactured elsewhere. Never mind that it would be cost prohibitive to bring back that type of production (at least on a mass scale), there just is not the knowhow here to do that type of industry, it would take a lot, it’s just easier to do it somewhere else.

            I do think Trump will have an impact. My son works for an airline based in Minneapolis. There, most of the ground support for carriers such as Delta consists of recent Somali immigrants. Anyone can schlep bags or clean planes but these are good jobs for entry level or lesser educated workers, we have a lot of people on welfare who should be doing that type of work (as is the case here in Oakland. This type of unnecessary feel good immigration will be one area where Trump can actually have an impacto and I think to the benefit of Americans.

          • Michael Scott

            So how is that you think that a guy who has had many of his products made overseas-creating jobs for many people in other countries, would actually make good on his promises about keeping jobs here?
            The guy is about buying America, not buying American.

          • Michael Scott

            I wouldn’t be surprised if he was thrown out before he got in. He’s already flirting with defying rules about nepotism and this blind trust business. But if he does somehow make it to January 20th, I’m sure that he’ll try to make “trickle up” become a reality.

          • channelclemente

            How does one reconcile those 14 million jobs that depend on NAFTA with this administration’s ‘vision’.

          • Moooooooooose

            Ford? You realize that decision was based on an agreement with the union well over a year ago.

          • Matthew

            “Bill Ford called Trump on Thursday to tell him the company was reversing course on a plan to eventually relocate Lincoln production from Kentucky to Mecico”….”signals Ford’s willingness to work withTrump”

            Wall Street Journal, 11/19

          • channelclemente
          • Matthew

            I’m sure your sources are better than mine. Of course they are.

            I guess Lefty is right. There’s no budge . If you have noticed, I’ve really tried to be open minded. I’m obviously failing in many folks view on here.

            Deep in my heart, I believe you are as punked as often. I despise the NYT

          • channelclemente

            You may not care for their editorial POV, I don’t at times. But I’ve never found a purposeful falsehood there in any story I’ve fact checked myself back to primary source material. My friend, I’m not easily punked or misled. LOL, I don’t read Salon anymore for exactly that reason. One might say, I’m similar to a Jim Webb Missourian, more or less.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            There’s the good, the bad, and the ugly I suppose.

          • channelclemente

            I don’t think anyone disagrees with ‘your’ hope, just the messiah-nger delivering it.

        • Michael Scott

          The media got Trump elected.

          • PerSpeier35

            Why do you say that? Most of the coverage I saw of him was pretty negative. You think the media putting down Trump supporters riled them up?

          • Michael Scott

            It wasn’t intentional, of course. But they spread his message long and loud. And that helped him.
            And what is “ghee”?

          • PerSpeier35

            “Ghee” is a typo for “the” on this godforsaken Samsung tablet. The spelling function was designed by drunken sailors as best I can tell. You would think that when it identifies a non-word that the replacement might actually be a real word but no sir. I fixed it right away but I guess you have to refresh to see it.

          • Michael Scott

            I have to use spell check these days. I’ve found not to even try the right spelling, just type something close and you might get a correction that is actually right.

          • PerSpeier35

            I do that too but on a short, routine word such as “the” I tend to get overconfident and think I can actually do it on my own.

          • Matthew

            Only Samsung would pick “ghee” out of the vast possibilities

          • Michael Scott

            It’s actually clarified butter.

          • Matthew

            Only Chef would clarify my Samsung butter

          • Brownie

            Shows how white you are. Try it. It’s a big part of Indian cuisine, especially from my state, West Bengal. It is yummy

          • Matthew

            If you heard me tearing it up on my Strat, you would think I was as non-white as they come. Matty Waters…

          • Matthew

            No doubt in my mind that he “played” the free coverage to the better level. But, don’t you think she and her campaign plYed a larger role based on their overconfidence?

          • Michael Scott

            See my reply to Speier on this.
            As to Clinton, of course she was confident that she’d win. Everybody did. Even many of Trump’s people. And she did get more votes, as you know.

      • channelclemente

        Ford was never moving the plant. So maybe another intro silver lining narrative makes more sense. This is not going to be a kumbaya political interval if it’s built on false narratives, self deception and outright falsehoods.

        • dgg

          Furthermore, Ford has had a 200+-acre Assembly Plant in Cuautitlán, Mexico since 1964. This was big news back when I was a teenager.

          • channelclemente

            Little details that skip notice. The Ford guys were thinking of moving the MKT to Mexico because the sales are so low, they were trying to keep the brand alive. But they were adding another line to hopefully makeup the sales gap. Now they’re sharing a line with a delta of zero jobs. But the truth is tooo liberal i guess. Meme mechanics beware. I still want to know what’ll happen to those 14,000,000 jobs that depend on NAFTA.

          • dgg

            Facts that skip notice!

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            Inconvenient truths?

          • dgg

            It’s not necessary to remember when Ford built the plant in Mexico. It’s easy in our interconnected internet world to quickly fact-check fake news and misleading brags on Twitter.

          • Scout Finch Baseball

            One of the great converging crises of this time is the dissolution of truth and meaning.
            Global warming/climate change is also really bad. Over 100 million dead trees in California Sierra Nevada – hope I got the facts right on that.

          • dgg

            NPR story talked about how Facebook gives equal weight to fake news and reputable news. It’s concerning that many people look to Facebook and Twitter as their primary source for news. I’m worried too about what’s going to happen to the environment and to hard working immigrants. I’m relieved that one of my relatives became a naturalized citizen in 2015. We sponsored his citizenship.

          • channelclemente

            CalFire firefighters are on lone in Georgia and South Carolina putting out wildfires now, due to long term droughts.

    • Michael Scott

      If you are a white Christian and can prove it,you have a good chance of sticking here.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        The real Jesus doesn’t fly with fakers.

        • Michael Scott

          If you’re not (white Christian), you’d be best to fake it.

      • HaakAway

        Balances out that right now, if you are a mid-eastern Christian you go to the back of the immigration line.

    • Noce

      I have been trying to stay of these threads because my views are rarely popular even among my friends. I have a checkered past in politics. I have a degree in PoliSci because it was the path to being a lawyer. I decided long ago to not to be in the middle of other peoples troubles. The first candidate I volunteered for was Doug Carter (R) for Assembly, then John Garamendi (D), Pat Johnstong (D), defeat of the peripheral canal, Ed Zschau (R) for Senate. I interned in Minority Caucus (AKA Reps) and Department of Disabled legislative information. I was chief of staff for a Rep who ran for Controller and lost. My best friend needed help so I work for him on 3 Dem state conventions was elected twice to represent San Joaquin county to two Rep state conventions. Again my best friend a highly regarded staff for the Dems in the Capital needed someone to drive in 3 motorcades. I drove in motorcades for Carter, Mondale two times and was tabbed to secure the main entrance when Bush senior came to Stockton. The people who asked me were surprised I had clearance already. I have met and had lunch with Senator Feinstein several times. None of this is for bragging rights. I do not vote for parties I vote for or against people.

      Of my four closest friends (the ones who would stop their lives to come help you) one’s family worked in the Kennedy administration, one already mentioned works in the capital, and one is a southern Dem and unionist. The other is a right wing conspiracist. Of course I am wrong 1/2 of the time in their eyes. It does not matter. We are bonded together for life because we accept who the other is.

      I believe there are people on the fringes of each side trying to tear this country apart for their own agenda. And the majority in the middle are in a state of bewilderment to anger of their actions. I recognize their methods and would hope all of you do the same.

      For the record I voted for Trump not because I want him. My vote was against Hillary and I would do it tomorrow and the next day. And anyone who does not like this fact can ignore me for the rest of time. But I have given everyone respect of their opinions and will in the future.

      • PerSpeier35

        You shouldn’t be reticent to state your views. Part of the reason society can solve problems is that they can’t be discussed in a thoughtful manner. Political correctness rules (another factor in the Trump rebellion win) and stifles potentially productive conversation.

      • Moooooooooose

        It’s the only valid reason for voting for Trump.

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    This is solid and respectfully done. Too bad the president elect had to take to twitter like the troll he is.

    https://twitter.com/HamiltonMusical/status/799828567941120000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    • paul in p.v.

      Oh yeah, he’s got a ‘great temperament’ for sure.

      • channelclemente

        The uber-irony is that Aaron Burr was almost a carbon copy of out new chief executive. People who are interested should read John Sedgwick’s, War of Two and remember in 1800 we came within an eyelash of it being Burr and not Jefferson as POTUS.

  • PerSpeier35

    Two months ago I injured my (non throwing) arm while batting. Quack Kaiser doctor one said it was just a strain, put some ice on it. A lump developed so Quack Kaiser doctor says it’s probably a cyst. Right. Number three says I tore the distal tendon and will need surgery to repair it. The lump is the retracted tendon and my bicep has turned to mush. So MRI next week and then surgery sometime after that. Odd thing is I was able to play through last month when I played in the tournament with my sons. So it goes for an aging ballplayer.

    • HaakAway

      It is the pits getting older.
      I have been learning to play baseball left-handed since a permenant injury to my right hand and arm. I am hoping this will “Alzhiemer Proof” my brain since I must be using a whole new set of neurons and synapses.

      Major hint: do the PT like clock-work; it makes a world of difference.

      • PerSpeier35

        Thanks, I will, my wife will see to that. So you are going all Sandoval and switching throwing arms? How’s that going? I don’t think I could throw a ball 25 feet with my left arm.

        • HaakAway

          You would be surprised how the same mechanics are all you need to focus on; probably what you have taught to younger ones: “Feed the Midget, Show the Giants, Follow Through”. If I do not stay focused then my wife is chasing a wild through somewhere or giving me The Look. We take our gloves with us on most trips. When she can no longer play catch I will have to DFA her.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Rough stuff, but if that was it, your last hurrah was pretty effing good.

      • PerSpeier35

        No last hurrah for me Ryan, it’s not my throwing arm, I’ll be back playing guaranteed.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          Nice.

    • channelclemente

      Your experience with Quackland was a bit like mine, I moved to Sutter as a matter of survival and have had far better medics to choose from. Just my experience.

      • Michael Scott

        Try “Deadbud”, as the Adventist hospital in Clearlake was called. They had a minor problem with folks not waking up from anesthesia after surgery.

        • channelclemente

          LOL. Go down Moses has an entirely different connotation there, it would seem.

      • PerSpeier35

        I’m nervous about Kaiser cutting me but surgeries are costly, I don’t have alternate coverage. I’ve had some bad history with Kaiser myself but I’m going to have to roll with it. Thanks for your concern, much appreciated.

    • PS35 – KP does not know much about what you went through. If you can possibly swing it (pun intended) go see Arthur Ting http://tinyurl.com/z9uybbb

      Don’t believe all the other negative stuff about him on the web. He operated on my son who was a switch-hitting college secondbaseman who was moving to third base and he did a wonderful job.

      Other than Doctor Ting, check out the Reikes Center in Menlo Park.

      • PerSpeier35

        Thanks Clutch but my insurance is through Kaiser, I’m kinda stuck with it

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          My madre has been pretty happy with her Kaiser. Maybe they specialize in cancer care. Or maybe it’s just regional.

          • KP has improved a TON. There was a time however …

          • Lunch_Box

            I dunno about referring people to Sharks doctors. They’ve misdiagnosed a few players including Raffi Torres and Johnathan Cheechoo. I didn’t like that they told young Tomas Hertl that he didn’t need surgery on his weak right knee. He got injured again a few days ago, and now he may need surgery on that right knee of his after all.

          • PerSpeier35

            Thanks, I will keep this handy.

          • Or other KP docs
            Nate Swain
            Robert Nied
            Shawn Hsieh
            Todd Weitzenberg

  • totalfan62

    Just kinda caught up on this thread. I see a lot of cogent political comments, most of them good stuff. Didn’t see any answers to GG’s questions (they’re probably way downstream), so I’m gonna comment on that.

    Top three worst MVP choices:
    1) Guillermo Hernandez, Detroit (1984)
    A relief pitcher winning MVP?
    2) Andre Dawson, Chicago Cubs (1987)
    Great year, but the Cubs finished last.
    3) Jeff Burroughs, Texas (1974)
    At least three Oakland A’s more deserving, they split up votes one guy should have received.

    Best MVP seasons all time:
    NL: Barry Bonds, 2004. In my opinion the single bet statistical season ever. Bonds carried that team all year.
    AL: Carl Yastrzemski, 1967. Carried that team from ninth place to the World Series.

    Next Giant to win MVP: Buster Posey.

    • channelclemente

      I have a feeling that Giants second baseman, Joe Panik has a good shot, if he stays health and continues on the trend he’s on. I never believed he could play the kind of defense he’s playing now. In addition, since no one seems to be trying to remake him into a power hitter, he just might sustain a .300+ BA for quite a while.

      • Michael Scott

        First he kinda needs to get back to .300. That’s a long ways to go. He’s trending DOWN now. At the plate.

        • channelclemente

          Tough sophomore year, plus the injuries. I still see the same work through it mechanic at the plate though. I’m optimistic.

      • The Oracle

        Trend? He just had his worst year, by far.

        • channelclemente

          It’s my opinion, you’re welcome to your own.

          • The Oracle

            It’s your opinion, but “continues on the trend he’s on…” is a little off. He needs to do the opposite.

          • channelclemente

            I don’t see your point, but, beyond your kibitzing skills, I rarely do.

          • dgg

            Most excellent verb: kibitzing. Quite funny.

      • dgg

        Most excellent GG caliber defense for the converted shortstop!

      • PerSpeier35

        Wow CC, I think you are way over valuing Panik. Nice player, super solid second baseman but he’s never going to hit anywhere close to MVP caliber. Nor will Posey, hard on win another MVP with a slice singles to right field approach. I would pick Crawford as more likely, spectacular SS and he swings the bat aggressively, maybe he’ll put it all together one season and really tear it up.

        • channelclemente

          It’s my opinion that Panik is ultimately a far more consistent and therefore valuable hitter over time. At the same time, I think Crawford is a .240-.260 hitter under the best of circumstances when you look overtime. He’s a great SS defensively, but even he, I think, would admit to his struggles at theplate. To my eye, I just see Panik with the better skill set. It’s an opinion, LOL, and a limb.

          • PerSpeier35

            Panik will certainly have a higher lifetime average than Crawford, I’d rate him the better hitter but, and I know it’s a super stretch, I think Crawford has more potential to have an MVP type season with lots of extra base hits and RBI’s.

          • channelclemente

            Let’s hope we’re both right.

          • PerSpeier35

            As my old Babe Ruth coach used to say: “that’s a good ide-er!”

          • Michael Scott

            I think that our next MVP isn’t up here yet but if there was a really down year for hitters, MadBum might have a shot.

          • channelclemente

            LOL, you got a point. I have really high hopes and expectations for young Arroyo, myself.

      • totalfan62

        Good point. Joe P. has the ability to be a perennial all-star, and a career year could bring an MVP.

    • Scout Finch Baseball

      Great picks.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        …but also hard to dismiss 49 HRs, 137 RBIs, and a Gold Glove from The Hawk. Finished 2nd in the MVP balloting twice before, so maybe he was just due. Ozzie Smith and Jack Clark finished 2-3 in ’87, Will Clark finished 5th.

        • Scout Finch Baseball

          Fun ballot page to revisit. Lots of great years.

          http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1987.shtml#NLmvp

          • Michael Scott

            Dan Quisenberry was third in ’84. Somehow Hrbek snuck into 2nd. Murray, Mattingly, and Gibson were 4,5,6. Wacky year for the AL MVP.

        • totalfan62

          That’s the classic MVP vs great statistical year argument.

    • channelclemente

      I’d pick the 1941 Ted Williams, Joe Dimaggio contest for MVP as the biggest, sports writer juiced miscarriage of fairness. By every neutral criteria known, Williams should have won the award.

      Brian Kenny’s idiotic defense of DiMaggio in modern times revealed why he’s just a poser in the stats community.

      http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2016/7/20/12232248/ted-williams-joe-dimaggio-yankees-red-sox-mvp-1941

    • Michael Scott

      So what do you think of Ernie Banks winning it twice?

      • totalfan62

        Same as Dawson, I guess. My first season as a fan was 1960, and I didn’t feel qualified to comment on any year before that.

  • The Oracle

    The post-election confrontation I’m hoping to see is Trump vs. sanctuary cities. I’m not sure how anyone can support the idea that local jails shouldn’t cooperate by turning over those in the country illegally who have serious criminal histories, but I’m sure many here do.

    • We see what you did there ….

    • Michael Scott

      Some police groups and many police chiefs have approved of sanctuary cities. There are valid reasons for their support.

      • The Oracle

        Police Chiefs are politicians. If there are “valid reasons,” I’d love to hear them.

        • PerSpeier35

          Oracle you’re a cop, you have to deal with these people, can’t have them fearing you and being uncooperative, can you? I hate the concept of sanctuary cities but the federal government is at fault for allowing so much illegal entry to the country so I understand why cities feel they are better served making its illegal residents feel more comfortable dealing with authorities.

          • The Oracle

            I’m talking about prisoners in jail with serious criminal histories. The overwhelming majority of people here illegally do not fall into this category and, in my experience, have no interest in protecting predators.

        • Michael Scott

          Read about it yourself. You have all the right equipment. But I see that you got your comment from Fox News. Believe it or not, there are more sides to an argument than what Fox says. As you know, 3 of my family have been peace officers, two of them have passed away- my living brother Patrick agrees with me, his wife (the police person who just passed away), agrees with you. Brother Bill would have agreed with your stance. 2-2.
          I have never been a policeman, but I AM on the side of Law and Order- with proper restraints.

          • The Oracle

            I got my comment from forming my own opinion.

          • Michael Scott

            Without reading opposing points of view? But anyway, he won’t be “clashing” with the leaders in our big cities. He may go after the Mayor of Palookaville, he’s big on bullying the little folks.

          • The Oracle

            How do you have any idea what I read?

          • Michael Scott

            Nothing in your comments about this show any indication that you have read anything that might give an opposing viewpoint.

          • The Oracle

            That’s funny. Because I don’t agree with you, I must not have read any opposing viewpoints.

          • channelclemente

            He gave you the opening you needed to explain yourself/POV and either you took a pass or don’t have an explanation. If you have a reasoned position, please feel free to share it, if not you’re on the brink, IMO, of just trolling.

          • Michael Scott

            So you have opposing viewpoints but don’t consider them to be valid?
            BTW, check out “The Morning Show with Preston Scott”. another one of my brothers. Definitely conservative. I’m used to conversing with people who disagree with each other. You seem to have a problem with that.

          • The Oracle

            If I, you, or anyone else considered opposing viewpoints to be valid, they would no longer be opposing viewpoints. As far as conversing with people who disagree, I think I’ve shown that I enjoy it.

          • Michael Scott

            One can disagree and still acknowledge that the “opponent” has valid points worth considering.

          • The Oracle

            Sorry, but I just don’t see a valid reason for protecting those convicted of serious crimes.

          • Michael Scott

            That’s not what it’s about. You are seizing on an unfortunate mistake to make the entire policy “invalid”. This but a ruse for your boy to round ’em all up. But it won’t work- he knows that, just more posturing for his choir.

          • The Oracle

            If you’re talking about people with only minor, misdemeanor-type criminal histories, who haven’t hurt anyone, then you might have a point worth at least considering. But most people here illegally don’t get arrested. And I also don’t need someone’s second DUI to be the one that kills someone.

    • paul in p.v.

      Why do you want “post-election confrontation[s]”?

      • The Oracle

        There are things that need to change. I think that’s one of them.

        • paul in p.v.

          Is this a big problem?

          • The Oracle
          • paul in p.v.

            Dude – this crud happens all over the country every day. Talk about a small sample size.

          • The Oracle

            Yea…small sample size. No big deal. Just one innocent dead girl, and you didn’t even know her. It was well worth letting that guy out. It’s a matter of principle. There are plenty of girls who aren’t dead.

          • paul in p.v.

            I’d appreciate it if you didn’t put me down. Other people have principles.

    • channelclemente

      I think it’s more ICE agents scooping people up during traffic stops and in the workplace. In many communities, they operate more like a terror squad. You may not see it that way, but most Hispanic communities do. In South Texas, the threat of ICE agent raids is how many local employers intimidate and manage Hispanic work forces.

      • PerSpeier35

        You might get a kick out of this; years ago I worked for an agricultural company, a flower nursery. We had an operation up in Washington and of course the work force was largely illegal. The farm got word that there was going to be a raid in the area so our company and a competitor orchestrated a rouse, the workers stayed away, were terminated, then we hired the workers from the other nursery and they hired ours. We essentially traded labor forces but it got the job done. I’m sure the INS could have figured it out and probably did but it was basically in a wink wink enforcement mode at that time.

    • Matthew

      TO, what if they tweaked the rules? I think the original intent was spot on, but the manipulation by certain cities has gutted the good in ways that have lead to lethal results….like much of what I see recently in so many well intentioned ideas

      • The Oracle

        Protecting real criminals here illegally was never a good idea.

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Cardinals to sign lefty reliever Brett Cecil to 4 year/30 mil contract. Andrew Miller signed a 4 year/36 mil deal two years ago.

    It’s a good thing Evans traded for Will Smith – although that cost of acquisition was also relatively high.

    • Lunch_Box

      The jury is still out on Susac and Bickford. I trust the Giants scouts on pitchers, and didn’t they say Bickford was more of a long reliever or someone to come out of the BP? The scouting on young OF prospects on the other hand…

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    I want to declare Kelly McEvers from NPR My Media Gal. She does a great job and I really appreciated how tough she was in this interview:

    http://www.npr.org/2016/11/17/502476139/were-not-going-away-alt-right-leader-on-voice-in-trump-administration

  • Wally Pipp

    Usually athletes life -elebrations go on the longest up here but this entertainer has dominated as long if not longer “UP here”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiAuXRK3Ogk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGorjBVag0I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q&list=RDYrLk4vdY28Q#t=4

    • Moooooooooose

      Wally’s back!!

    • channelclemente

      I miss Gwen Ifill as much or more than Cohen. It’s in many ways a sad time.

      • paul in p.v.

        Amen.

      • Lunch_Box

        She was fair and diplomatic…something missing from today’s news media.

        • channelclemente

          Civil?

      • Michael Scott

        Nice to see some agreement on that. My comment last night was partially inspired by a round table on PBS last night. Some other good media people reminisced about Gwen.

        • channelclemente

          MacNeil, Leherer, with Gwen Ifill and Charlayne Hunter-Gault with the segments by Shields and Gigot, and later Shields and Brooks may have been the finest news programs ever broadcast. I don’t do broadcast TV any longer, so I’ve moved on, lol, from broadcast journalism.

          • Michael Scott

            I LOVE Shields and Brooks. Great stuff on the debates and The Donald.

          • channelclemente

            I’ve grown fond of Steve Schmidt’s POV as well. He’s been on PBS, but on other networks for the most part.

  • * Name your top 3 worst MVP choices.
    1) Wills over Mays 2) Pendelton over Bonds 3) Juan Gonzalez over Junior
    * Name the best MPV season in each league, all time.
    NL Bonds 2004
    AL Yaz 1967
    * Which Giant will be the next to win the award?
    Hunter Pence

    • Lunch_Box

      Pendelton over Bonds is a good bad MVP choice and I think pitchers over hitters in the MVP selection when there is the CY Young award is ridiculous. Two come to mind: Eckersley in 1992 and Kershaw in 2014.

    • Moooooooooose

      Rose over Bonds was as bad as it gets

      • totalfan62

        Word. Another painful memory I’ve apparently erased.

    • totalfan62

      Ooh, Clutch: three good worst MVPs! Unbelievably, I forgot about Wills beating out Willie in 1962. Put that out of my memory, I guess!

    • Matthew

      Karl Malone over MJ

      • “The pebble been done snatched from my hand”

  • paul in p.v.

    Guess what popped up in my Facebook “Memories” from 4 years ago?

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e4c642e71114c94449ce279a9c0581e14facefd07f8af1c254ab94f7d27405f.jpg

    Never gets old…

  • DrLefty

    It’s a boy for the Clayton Kershaw family. They already have a little girl. I think this baby boy looks like his dad!

    https://twitter.com/Dodgers/status/800077940515975168

    • paul in p.v.

      That’s all we need, another Kershaw on the planet. ;o)

      • DrLefty

        Hopefully he’s not a lefty. He’ll be striking out Huck Tomlinson and Braxton Crawford in no time!

        • paul in p.v.

          Let’s see – under Pres. Chelsea, or Pres. Ivanka?

          • DrLefty

            President Lefty Jr.

          • paul in p.v.

            THERE ya go.

          • She is WAY smarter than to go INTO politics

          • channelclemente

            She’s a tenured professor at a major public university, that fact alone assures her as being a consummate politician from my personal experience.

          • Lefty was talking about her daughter

          • channelclemente

            But I wasn’t.

          • But she was

          • channelclemente

            So?

          • This will go to arbitration I am sure ….

          • channelclemente

            Wanna make a wager on that?

          • MatthewSerra

            I better find a country where the canuck $ is devalued before a spend money I don’t have.

          • My brother cannot vouch for me. He cut in with his own account.

            I bet POPCORN for the year or a trip to the best Normandy restaurant back in the Bay Area,

        • Matthew

          Maybe, but Tristan Pill is taking him deep

    • Ron Howard?

  • DrLefty

    The Giants are very busy on the minor league free agent market. Michael Roth spent 2016 on the Rangers’ AAA team, making 23 starts and pitching 145.2 innings, with a 2.90 ERA. He’s a 26-year-old lefty. (WARNING: Don’t look at his major league stats! Small sample size! Look at that nice season in AAA!)

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/11/minor-mlb-transactions-111916.html

  • paul in p.v.

    Just when you thought things couldn’t get any worse – the attack of the dreaded snot-nosed weevil:

    http://tequilaaficionado.com/2016/11/19/the-agave-shortage-of-2017-its-worse-than-we-thought/

  • totalfan62

    Congrats to Greek Giant and his Florida Gators. They beat LSU (in Baton Rouge) 16-10 and win the SEC East, eliminating my Tennessee Volunteers. Gators with a great goal line stand to win the game in the final seconds.

    • Matthew

      You’re the best sport on this blog

      • channelclemente

        How are you holding up in these fateful times. I meant to ask you, whom do you consider a reliable information resource?

        • Matthew

          I trust WSJ the most, and had folks read that through the entire crazy election cycle, you would see that they were extremely critical of both sides. I’m holding up fine, but not starting ANY conversations. Just responding.

          By the way , I read NYT, New Yorker, SF Chron and others…watch both Maddow and Hannity for entertain,net purposes mostly.

          I may have a somewhat narrow view of hope as I look at my company, our industry, our challenges, and the forced analysis we have to make as we plan. It affects us, and all 600+ of our broader team in CA, TX, IL, NJ, OH….

          • channelclemente

            Good luck, truly.

      • paul in p.v.

        Ditto, Mateo.

  • 46 degrees here. 4 pm Sumatra fix

    When Jerry first met…. http://comediansincarsgettingcoffee.com/single-shots/so-we-meet-again

  • channelclemente

    Nothing about baseball, but to those who enjoy computer flight simulators for recreation. Google Earth has one that is geographically accurate so you can land at the real Istanbul airport if you were so inclined to stop in on Mr. Ergodan’s kingdom.

    http://www.dailydot.com/parsec/best-free-flight-simulators/

  • I know Dinero was all over Notre Dames Slania – not that there is anything wrong with that …

    (Gerald-Demp III working out with his third baseman’s mitt down in Leesburg, Georgia)

    http://m.giants.mlb.com/news/article/209207794/giants-add-5-players-to-40-man-roster/

  • Ham & Egging It

    The looks on the faces of Michigan fans right now is giving me a good laugh.

    • Matthew

      Has college football reached non-Alabama parity? Indiana leading the game is “whoa”.

      • The Oracle

        The back-up QB is giving them nothing.

        • Michael Scott

          Jim hasn’t fixed him yet?

          • The Oracle

            Tomsula, 10-6.

          • Michael Scott

            Non-responsive.

          • The Oracle

            Your coaching assessment record isn’t the best.

          • Michael Scott

            With what he was left with, it was a surprise that they won even 1 game.

          • The Oracle

            He was under appreciated.

        • Matthew

          Hence: hand it to Smith. Boom

    • The Oracle

      How about now?

      • Ham & Egging It

        At the time I was watching (late second quarter) it was too funny. That laugh is in my memory bank (for me to keep) and I still think it was “Larry David” quality humor.

  • Gamecocks Michael Roth has a Buster-type veerbal delivery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQvTA4eHaeA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDD8zFYjTG0
    http://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-baseball/article115762013.html

    Giants select contracts of 5 players to add to 40-man roster: Right-handers Reyes Moronta, Dan Slania and Chase Johnson infielder Miguel Gomez and infielder-outfielder Orlando Calixte. All five were eligible to be taken in Rule 5 Draft but are now protected.

  • What is in a number? With the Giants – Clubhouse Guru Mike Miguel Murphy is dedicated to what he gives out early or holds onto for awhile.

    I believe Pagan’s 16 – Romo’s 54 – Lopez’s 49 – Casilla’s 46 – Beckham’s 17 – Billy Haye’s 58 – Roberto Kelly’s 39 and Blanco’s 7 are all up for grabs.

    Would be curious what Murph does with Peavy’s 22 (retire it Larry on behalf of the Ripper and Will the Thrill)

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2016-roster.shtml

    Chase Johnson now has Duffy’s #5 – Ian Gardeck has #47 – Reyes Moronta has #45 – For paperwork purposes it looks like Orlando Calixte must be *sharing* #9 with Belt since nobody asked Belt – Dan Slania is sharing 29 with the Shark and Miguel Gomez is sharing #21 with Conor Gillaspie.

    I think there will be a line for the White Sharks #7

    • Michael Scott

      So is Gregor officially gone? If he’s healthy, he could still be a Giant next year.

    • totalfan62

      I’m with you on #22. The Giants are firm on only retiring a number if the player is HOF, but Murph can “hold” like he does #22 and #25. Both numbers worn by two players with the same last name, all four of them all-time SF Giant legends.

      • That is why (also) Matt Moore “decided on” 45 vs 55

      • Efrain

        yet the 22 was given to Peavy, should tell you it can go to anyone.

  • CAL fans had hoped for dry Bay Area weather but now I believe Stanford’s Christian McCaffrey will dominate.

    • Efrain

      What happened to your statement before the season the McCaffrey was going to win the Heisman?

      How is that working for you?

      LOLZ

      • PerSpeier35

        Well he got it right today, that guy rushed for 284, not too shabby.

        • Efrain

          nope, but against Cal D you could have gone for 200

      • He had issues with injuries LIKE so many other pre-season choices. So your dinging me for choosing him before the season started? Heck I chose Andrew Luck over RGIII and Luck got screwed out of that award.

        284 in one game vs even Sisters of the Poor is a lot of yards.

        • Efrain

          lol I know i was doing it more for poking fun.

  • channelclemente

    Jeff Sessions feels no one from the DR offers enough to be let into the US. He’s clearly not a baseball fan.

    • Michael Scott

      I think there might be hope for our country yet. There could be some Republicans who hate him and his policies enough to vote with the Democrats on some of his agenda.

      • channelclemente

        Somehow, I just hope reasonable men can put aside petty turf wars, and for a change decide for the greater good of all the citizens of this country. Now I have a fairy tale about unicorns and zombies in drag I can tell you.

      • Ham & Egging It

        That won’t be the case. Cruz, Ryan, and Romney have all kissed DT’s ring. Winning does wonders for sore feelings. The Tea Bag regime will be working (with neocon remnants) to get their version of K-street up and running.

        • channelclemente

          One wonders what the middle class working people who want to drain the swamp will think of that?

          • Ham & Egging It

            The next 4 years will be as polarizing as the last eight years.

          • Michael Scott

            If we’re still here .

          • I have room here….

          • Michael Scott

            Thanks. We have baggage, you know. Big time.

          • Dogs, cats, Mrs Chef … bring ’em all. We built an Ark in the great northwest.

          • Michael Scott

            The forgotten people will not be happy when the only thing that trickles down is a Trump snot rocket.

        • Michael Scott

          I think his clout with his own party might be diminished once he’s in. Maybe.

      • Matthew

        That’s a great comment….and if you’re watching The Donald closely, he is already backing off much of the rhetoric.

        • Michael Scott

          I upvoted you because you upvoted me. I’m a slut for upvotes.

          • paul in p.v.

            Funny bastardo. Not Antonio. But Mateo is dreaming.

    • dgg

      I remember that 2006 speech all too well. Sessions disparaged immigrants from one country: “Fundamentally, almost no one coming from the Dominican Republic to the United States is coming because they have a skill that would benefit us and that would indicate their likely success in our society…”

      My family was incensed. I wonder how Juan Marichal felt.

      • paul in p.v.

        Scum of the states. I got excited thinking, one less reboid senator – then I remembered from which state he hails.

        I was down in FL last week. The flags of sedition were being flown again.

  • John Shea the Shea Hey Kid http://tinyurl.com/j29pdg7

    • Matthew

      Read the whole thing, thinking “this reads like Jenkins…. And then saw. The link was Jenkins. Great either way

      • Thank you – my brah.

      • DrLefty

        He said “desultory”

        • Michael Scott

          If there isn’t a law forbidding use of one’s trademark word, there should be. Or he could at least ask.

  • http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/History-is-present-in-all-that-we-do-10621274.php

    Good read: “The America I love, and the America I love….”

  • Scout Finch Baseball

    Saw Arrival today. What did you think Clemente, Lefty, anybody who has seen?

    • channelclemente

      I’ve heard/read it’s good. What’s your debrief. I’m watching The Ghost in Shell (1995) now.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        High quality movie experience. Thoughtful, not totally exhilarating, but a storyline that you can keep tying together in your mind after the event.

      • Scout Finch Baseball

        Whoa. Cool. Varied taste you have.

        • channelclemente

          A good movie is still a good movie. I like 2501, always have. 😉

      • Jacob Singer

        That’s a great franchise. I saw the series yrs ago & the sequel to the movie, Innocence.. The anime is currently on another reboot but I haven’t checked that out yet. The manga ( comic book ) it’s based on is a bizzaro blend of hard sci-fi & porn. Kind of like Heavy Metal magazine from the 80’s.

    • DrLefty

      Not yet, but we will.

  • PerSpeier35

    The Bucks have a player whose last name contains every letter of the alphabet. Puts that baseball playing eye chart guy from a few years ago to shame.

    • Efrain

      do you realize how pathetic and white that statement is?

      You most likely have no clue that Giannis Antetokouonmpo is thier best palyer and has been a rising star in the league for a few years.

      I know you may have been making a weak attempt to be funny but only shows what Trumps America preaches, “if it ain’t white it ain’t right”

      • PerSpeier35

        I know it’s your thing but chill out, the guys very long name caught my eye, sorry to tell you that his race had nothing to do with my harmless comment, if he was white then same comment, if you don’t like it don’t comment on it and feel free to block me then you won’t have to read my pathetic white comments.

        People like you do a disservice to the cause of minorities. Every single topic, action, comment, whatever, is racist. Ever hear of the expression “crying wolf?” I feel bad for you, not because you are black or brown or whatever you are, but because you are one miserable individual. What was it that Buzz Lightyear said in Toy Story? Oh yeah, “you are a sad sad little man, you have my pity.” Something like that.

      • Solavox

        Diagnosis: schizophrenia
        Treatment: haloperidol.

      • If our blood is red – we’re all the same

    • dgg

      Giannis Antetokounmpo. My rudimentary Greek (2 years ancient Greek in college long ago) with an assist from Wikipedia helps me with the Greek pronunciation: ʝanis a(n)detoˈkun(m)bo.

  • Michael Scott

    I’ve had fun today. I’ll stop in for another 14 hour chat someday real soon.

    • Michael Scott

      Yes, that’s a threat.

    • Solavox

      Lewis couldn’t have written better.

  • Bail-o Yo Ho.
  • Walter Guest

    I been liking Miguel Gomez since he started raking in the Dominican League, but I don’t think he should have been put on the 40 man roster to protect him from the rule 5 draft. He has no position. They’ve tried him at catcher, third and first. It wasn’t a fail but it wasn’t good. He runs pretty good so maybe try him in the outfield?

    Another thing, he has never played above single A. What major league team would try to keep a single A player on the roster a full season?

    And finally, he’s a see ball, hit ball batter. Little plate discipline. If he gets to the majors I would predict a sub .300 on-base-percentage.

    All this is moot if the Giants don’t lose a player to the rule 5 draft of course.

  • Walter Guest

    Oh by the way, just finished my 24th chemotherapy. Now I wait for the verdict. After every 6 sessions they stop for 2 weeks and check me out. Except for the expense and the inconvenience, this hasn’t bothered me at all. I’m a fatalist in all this. I was the same when I thought I had been captured by the Viet Cong. It’s like, “What the hell, let’s see what comes next.”