by
GreekGiant
The Giants lost. The season is over. I am going to cry myself to sleep.
More to come…
Thank You Giants
Let me begin by saying “thank you” to the Giants for a memorable and exciting season. I prefer gratitude over furious teeth-gnashing and resentment. We are spoiled fans of course. Three championships since 2010 is remarkable and downright historic in baseball history. The joys and highs seemed never-ending: Matt Cain’s perfect game, Buster Posey’s MVP season, the All-Star game heroics of Melkey Cabrera and Pablo Sandoval, the many playoff conquests and so much more during the regular season… This has been a decade of feast after feast for Giants nation. Let’s remember this before we hurl fury and resentment, anger and wrath at our heroes and Bruce Bochy. If the Giants never get to another postseason game in our lifetimes we will still have enjoyed more pleasure and euphoria than fans of just about every other team. Think about that for a minute the next time you want Bochy fired.
The joys this San Francisco ballclub have all given me personally I will treasure the rest of my life. In 2010 I left my secure job to start my own business. Three weeks into my bold venture with little to fall back on financially should I fail, my father had an emergency quadruple bypass that could have easily taken his life while my mother was battling her own health wes. I am happy to say he is alive and well today thanks to excellent work by his family doctor, heart surgeon and cardiologist. Why do I bring this up now?
This is real life folks. Our fandom for a baseball team or any sports franchise cannot and should not be so serious that it affects our civility and well-being, our mutual respect for each other. When my father was recovering from his procedure and my mother’s health was in decline it was left to me to run my business, help my father recover and care for my mother. What I remember most about this time was the sense of urgency I was living with and how life has a way of clarifying what matters for you. Suddenly Timmy’s slump in August of 2010 was not that big a deal.
I also remember watching Edgar Renteria’s homer and Timmy’s dominant performance in game 5 on November 1, 2010 with both my parents. The Giants were companions in my life during that very difficult time and I will always be grateful for that. A baseball season is a metric for life’s events in many ways. We all personalize our own histories according to specific games and seasons.
First the Good
Now about last night’s game. The end of this once-promising season feels a bit like a death. There was so much joy and life among Giants fans after Monday night’s unforgettable triumph and so much sadness this morning. The baseball Gods have a way of evening things out and boy did they even things out last night.
Matt Moore pitched his heart out in a display of command, composure and leadership. His fastball was super-charged and his off-speed pitches, particularly his curveball, were spotted with efficacy completely confounding the potent Cubs hitters. His final line: 8 innings pitched, 1 earned run, 2 hits, 2 walks and 10 strikeouts. His ability to minimize trouble was ace-like while the defensive play behind him was mostly sterling, except for Brandon Crawford’s bad throw that ended up leading to an unearned run. Clearly this is the pitcher Robert Evans was hoping to acquire when he traded away beloved Matt Duffy and top prospect Lucius Fox this summer. Matt Moore became a force and legitimized his place among the Giants rotation with his superb performance that proved his postseason mettle and tantalized both teammates and fans with thoughts of a dominant starting rotation for years to come.
Joe Panik had what may have been of the most important at-bat of the evening (had the outcome of the game been happier) when he fouled off 5 pitches and hit a sharp sacrifice fly to center in the bottom of the 5th to give the Giants a big run, an inning after the Cubs clawed their way back to make the game 3-2. Panik’s sacrifice fly followed Conor Gillaspie’s RBI single. The offensive display was superb in its situational hitting. The Giants had three sacrifice flies, advanced runners when they had to and put the ball in play in very difficult pitchers counts. Matt Moore even pitched in with an RBI single in the third inning to give the Giants a 3-1 lead.
This is the Giants team we were expecting at the start of the season: opportunistic, fierce, relentless and ready to capitalize on every chance an opposing team threw their way. Tonight, in another elimination game, the Giants hitters responded with a superb team effort up and down the lineup. Denard Span set the tone with a lead-off double in the bottom of the first and advanced on Brandon Belt’s sacrifice fly to center. He would score on Buster Posey’s sacrifice fly to right that came in a tough at-bat with at 3-2 count.
The Cubs would not go down quietly. John Lackey pitched five tough innings and mostly flummoxed the Giants twisting them into contemporary yoga poses with the diversity of his breaking pitches, particularly his slider down and in to left-handed hitters.
Then the Ninth Inning Happened
Matt Moore had already thrown 120 pitches after eight innings. He was spectacular. Forget about bringing him back. In no rational mind can one think sending Matt Moore to pitch the ninth was the right move. Forget about his recent Tommy John surgery. We have all seen Bochy leave his starters in an inning or a batter too long. Even if Moore did look dominant and even if the bullpen has been problematic, putting Moore back out there to start the ninth would be a big gamble with many repercussions if it were to go badly. It was simply not the right move from a rational point of view. An argument can be made that this was an exceptional game and an exceptional situation and rational thought be damned. We are all feeling bitter and hindsight gives us only an illusion of understanding the situation. Risking a player’s career and a team’s future on such a slim chance of probability is not the way to manage a baseball team.
Bochy and Matchups
Let’s analyze what did take place, not what could have happened. The inning started with Derek Law giving up a single to the lead-off hitter and then getting pulled. This was a move I would not have made. I would have let Law continue to pitch to Rizzo. If Bochy should examine one of his customary managerial protocols it is his obsession with lefty-righty match-ups. Sometimes the risks outweigh the numbers. Taking Law out after one batter and bringing in a very iffy Javy Lopez to face Rizzo was the second questionable move, after removing Law. Rizzo was in no way intimidated by Lopez. Lopez was nibbling because he no longer trusts his fastball and off-speed pitches to get batters out if they are in the strike zone. Rizzo knew this and took a walk. That’s a hit and a walk to the first two batters in the ninth inning! It’s not Bochy’s fault that Law and Lopez failed to retire the batters they faced but it is on Bochy for choosing an in-effective Lopez for that situation.
The inning got worse from there. No need to analyze it except to say that Brandon Crawford’s two throwing errors contributed directly to two unearned runs that were the difference in the game.
Bochy did not walk those batters. His pitchers did. Bochy did not give up the hits that tied and won the game for the Cubs. His pitchers did. The question is, what level of responsibility is there between Bochy’s decisions and the execution of his relievers? I believe there is a correlation with regards to last night’s game.
Romo and Strickland fared no better. Romo too was pulled after one batter. I am a firm believer that using match-ups to determine your pitching choices so frequently in an inning disturbs the flow of the game for your defense and calls on your pitchers to be perfect in an untenable way. If each relief pitcher knows he has such a short rope then the stress and pressure of not being allowed an occasional walk or hit is often too great. The problem with the bullpen-by-committee approach the way Bochy employed it in the ninth inning was that he over-managed for the situations and put the Giants relievers in a huge mental disadvantage that I would argue affected the entire bullpen and ultimately the outcome of the game. Bochy’s mistake was both his approach in using so many relievers and his choice of relievers. It was a double error that I believe ultimately lead to the loss.
Why did he employ Javy Lopez over Will Smith to face Anthony Rizzo?
Why didn’t he start the inning with a well-rested Hunter Strickland?
Why didn’t he give Law a longer inning?
The culture of the bullpen and the pitchers will no doubt be different next year.
The Cubs Will Be a Force in the National League for Years to Come and The Giants Will Need to Make Plans Accordingly
The Cubs are a great team with a great manager. They have an excellent combination of speed and power, solid defense and exceptionally strong starting and relief pitching. They are a thing of beauty to behold from a baseball point of view. They are athletic with phenomenal players like Addison Russell and Javier Baez up the middle. Many players on their bench could be starters on most other Major League teams. The Cubs front office and Theo Epstein crafted a superb blend of veteran talent and young promise. They drafted well. They made excellent trades that paid huge dividends jettisoning favorites like Starlin Castro and acquiring talent like Anthony Rizzo and Aroldis Chapman. I believe they will win the World Series this year and it will be thanks to both their outstanding talent and winning culture. There is no 108 year curse hanging over this team. The Cubs are better in nearly every way than the Giants and it’s time we face that fact if we want to compete with them next year and beyond.
My favorite sports quote of all time comes from Bill Parcells: “You are what your record is.” His point is that fans and writers like to look for justification for losses and consolation prizes for the future. There is no consolation in losing if you are an athlete or coach. It’s winning or nothing and that is how it should be for a champion. It takes cold and hard analysis to build a winner. The Giants were burned by their sentimental signings and use of players who were past their prime and ultimately ineffective in that critical ninth inning (Romo and Lopez).
The Cubs went 7-4 agains the Giants this year. That is a dominant record. Of those eleven games all but three were decided by one run with the Cubs winning four of them. When you continuously lose close games it is tempting to believe that a few breaks here and there would have contributed to better fortunes. The truth is you cannot build a team counting on a few breaks or hoping for good fortune. At some point you have to accept that you are just not good enough. The Giants fought hard and played very well in most of the games but they do not have enough offensive fire power and a strong enough bullpen to beat the Cubs in a short postseason series and no amount of wouldas, couldas, shouldas will change that.
The Giants will need to examine all phases of their team and make some difficult choices if they want to win the World Series with this excellent group of players in the coming years. I do not believe they need a rebuild but they will have to find a lights out closer or develop one. They will also need more power and run production from their lineup. The Giants front office should use the Cubs as the metric for their offseason and design the team to defeat the Cubs in the postseason in much the same way the Red Sox built their 2004 team to defeat the Yankees.
It’s going to be a long offseason. I guess it’s time to break out those World Series DVDs.
That will leave a mark.
Breckeroni would a like to remind you no NL team in the history of MLB has ever won x4 in a Decade, nevermind 7 years.
We do it next year we still set a new standard. And we better before Cueto walks in 2018 and MadBum becomes mortal….
There is no crying in baseball
Figured I’d post my final thoughts here, and I will delete them in the old thread.
Well, it was a tough loss.
The only person I feel sorry for is Moore, who pitched a great game. But at least he can remember that part.
I responded to someone else on this thread and pointed out that this elimination wasn’t so bad. I’ve seen them all, just because I’m old. 1962, 1971, 1987, 1989, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003 …… that’s eight times they were eliminated, and now 2016, that makes 9 out of 12. It’s hard to be world’s champion.
All of those were worse than this one, first, because we had never won one when they happened. But all of them had bright spots, although, to be honest, I can’t see any bright spots in the 1997 sweep.
And there were bright spots in this one, too. First of all, we won two games. Our record was, in effect, 2-3 in the postseason. The two wins were two fantastic ones. Two of the losses featured great pitching performances by our starters. We really can’t complain.
It would have been worse to be eliminated on the road, or farther along the line, in the NLCS or even the World Series. Let’s be honest. We didn’t have either the hitting or the bullpen to win it all. Not to say we could not, but we would have needed a ton of breaks.
Top Giants in this postseason: Gillaspie, Bumgarner, Moore, Cueto. But virtually everyone had a chance to shine and do something great on the big stage. My congratulations.
The team? Well, they need a closer. Javier and Romo (acting out again) should not come back. Offensively, they need someone who can hit home runs, basically. I don’t know if it’s worthwhile to keep Pagan. But we lost a lot of power when we let Panda go, regardless of how much he ate himself out of a reliable starting job in MLB.
Have a nice off season. We had a nice season. I don’t really care what happens beyond this point.
I think that Span should be on your list of top Giants in the postseason
Yes, he really showed up in some of the games. But Gillaspie was clearly the hitting star.
I think we should the final Dodger game to his resume
Dont forget the 98 WC playoff with Cubs….sorry, I’m a completionists and wallowing in my misery after watching that game live.
LOL. I have that argument with my son all the time. But, the fact is, that was a regular season game #163, not a postseason game as such.
Lol. Agree but it was win or go home and hurts just the same….
But like you said, I think recalling all those memories, when we had ZERO WS titles at the time really makes you sit back, as a Giants fan, and realize how lucky we are to have 3 titles.
I stuck around the park to let the lines at the street car die down and watched the pure joy in Cubs fans at the park. I remember those feelings, one step closer to the one time you can only dream about but know the tough road still ahead. Is this our year?
I really am pulling for the Cubs now, their fans have suffered long enough.
Great headline Greek Giant. You summed it up
Just wanna thank you, Greek Giant, for setting this up. For all of our disagreements and verbal sparring, this really is a community, one that I never thought I could be a part of as I had disdain for this type of “internet group.” But that has changed over the last few years and the solid contributors we have here are the reason. There’s intelligence, humor, and personality quirks that really drive this train and overcome any trolling or other silliness that you’re inevitably going to get on a blog. So thanks again, GG and everyone else for being a part of this. I guess you really do have to trust the process, even if you wanna kick that process in the teeth.
That game, unfortunately, exemplied the Bochy failures we saw all season:
1. Why pull Moore? He was throwing a gem.
2. Instead, he chose Law, who had thrown 35 pitches the night before.
3. Having chosen Law, he panicked after only hitter.
4. He then went to Lopez…great idea 2010-2015, poor idea in 2016. Unfortunately, the move was made in 2016.
5. He then went to Romo with the tying run at the plate. Romo had thrown 32 pitches the night before, had given up the save-blowing HR the night before, and has a propensity for serving up the long ball…just what you need with the tying run at the plate.
6. He then made a 4th pitching change, still with no one out, and finally went to Will Smith, who had been lights out down the stretch and the team’s best reliever. In his last 19 appearances, Smith had given up no runs and only 4 hits over 14.2 innings, while striking out 21. Smith gave up a ground ball single and the DP ball that Crawford botched. Smith also does well against RHB. Did he stay with Smith? Of course not.
7. In his final move of the season, Bochy goes to Strickland, who gives up the season ending single.
What should he have done? Let Moore go as far as he could. If Moore encountered trouble, let Smith, who’d only thrown 9 pitches the night before, have the ball. Smith isn’t a specialist. He’d been excellent, and Bochy made him an afterthought. The Giants overcame a lot in 2016, including their own poor play. In the end, they couldn’t overcome their manager.
Agreed, and I do think the biggest blunder was going to Lopez instead of Smith. Smith has been the best reliever the past couple months, Lopez has been one of the worst all season long.
I wanted to thank everyone again for the warm welcome as the new kid on the block. It’s been quite a trying season to watch, but not without some good memories. Some high highs and some of the lowest of the lows.
For me, I think the reason why this one *feels* like it hurts more than the others even though we didn’t have any rings back then was just the *way* we lost this game. I’d rather get blown out, or have the Cubs outright beat us rather than beat ourselves. Not to take anything away from the Cubs, the chink in the armor was exposed and they sure as hell took advantage of it.
That being said, I find it amazing that the hurt and pain is just as strong now that we have the 3 rings as it did back when we didn’t have any. That fire and passion for going all the way is just as strong now, and that’s one of the great things about the game of baseball and about being a fan of this team. The moment that fire isn’t there is the moment you should think about caring about another sport, or something else all together.
Nobody on this roster has experienced a Giants playoff elimination loss with the exception of Nathan. Maybe they needed this to hurt bad to light a fire for next year. The front office also needed a gut check and a reminder of how much this hurts, and need to do their due diligence and spend the money to fill the holes and gaps that this team endured through much of the season.
I hope everyone has a great off-season and I look forward to doing this all over again next year.
Thanks for joining GG’s team, As they say- you were a good add.
Well, i killed a bottle of wine to help me sleep (i hope it works) and before i toddle off to bed, i want to say how much i have enjoyed this blog (many thanks to GG) and how disappointed i am in the way the Giants season ended.
But there is after all a sense of inevitability in the final act – a failure of the bullpen and a series of bad decisions — one cascading after another — in the fateful 9th. Too bad — the Giants could have gone all the way this year — and i believe will go all the way next year. So that is what i am left with — next year.
Next year, and three WS rings in the past 7 years under your pillow.
Go Raiders!
Go GIANTS!
Stanford football? WTF. Com’on man.
Romo is a disgrace. He chokes and then shows up his manager- again. Makes no difference what one thinks of Bochy .Romo showed his true colors tonight. Goodbye.
With that said, Bochy did outsmart himself and Mudbug picked a bad time to have a very bad night,
I totally agree about Romo. What’s up with that?, as he would say.
Mugging into his glove and doing his sky point. Why? At such a serious time, also.
I agree, it’s time for him to go.
Romo’s actions were classless, but like I said the last time he did it, I think they were also a window into what some of the other players were thinking. Will Smith also didn’t look very happy in the dugout. If the fans can see Bochy’s obvious errors, you know the players, who have the most at stake, aren’t ignoring them either.
And I’m sure it goes beyond that. I’m sure the front office and ownership group can see not just the many errors Bochy made, but any possible rift between players and Bochy.
if Bochy goes he will be kicked upstairs,No way that they fire him.
Yup, I agree with that.
Bochy always had a bullpen that he could rely on in the title years. Looking at the relievers who were used tonight Law over amped himself- he had to be pulled ,Lopez just walked too many this year. Smith and Strickland were pretty unlucky,Romo and Javy are gone, of course too bad that Sergio tarnished his reputation
The manager deserves to be shown up.
That is NEVER the case.
I feel like only the 2016 Giants could lose two of the three games in the series in which their pitchers went:
8 IP, 3 H, 1 ER, 10K
8 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 10K
That was seemingly impossible…until now. And they were done so in completely opposite ways.
You are right. Those were losses, but great pitching performances.
The first loss underlined our weak hitting. The second underlined our weak bullpen.
We need to fix both before we talk seriously about winning it all again.
spot on!
During the regular season, my only motto is, “win today’s game”, because all I really want is to win, forget about the postseason for now and all that.
The Giants have been in the postseason four times in the past seven seasons, and now have a record of 36-17: that’s twice as many wins as losses, twice as many times we got a good vibe than a bad one. Compared to any other fan base in MLB, during this century, we have nothing to complain about.
Well, what a night. It ended how it happened during the season over and over and over. Mr GGF and I attended our first post season game at the park and it was a lot of fun for 8 innings. The place was rocking, the Giants were cruising along. And then came the 9th inning and it was like someone put a needle into a ballon and the air just kept escaping and there was nothing they could do to stop it.
Thanks also for welcoming me here (after I finally came out from lurking) and letting me sharing in the fun and anxiety. I tried to post a picture earlier but that didn’t work. I guess I need to learn how to do this for next season. And I got one of those nice grey jackets with San Francisco written across the chest as a late (promised) birthday gift! Let’s do this again next year and start some new odd year magic.
I finally got one of those jackets for my birthday this year too! So comfy.
I can’t imagine being there. I could barely handle it watching it & listening to it on the lowest volume. Sigh.
I was streaming KNBR with the TV on mute and could hear the park get quieter and quieter. And our post season shirts (“Made for October”) finally shipped and will be here by the end of the week…just in time.
Man that’s a bummer. That’s like when my Duffy bobblehead got delivered the day I heard the news about his trade.
Same thing happened to me too! Junior Giants campaign…he’s proudly front and center with all the others.
Bumgarner ended the 2016 postseason with a postseason ERA of 2.11, it was 2.14 before. So he actually shaved off something in spite of his game yesterday. That pleases me.
silverlinings.
Legendary Status Intact.
I do feel bad for Casilla here. Not that I think he should have been our closer in the post season.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/11/casilla-weeps-after-being-passed-over-in-fateful-collapse-in-ninth/
Bochy’s handling of Casilla is one of the biggest blunders of the season. He sticks with him WAY too long as the closer, and then goes to the other extreme of hardly not using him at all. So why did he stick with him so long then?? Weird.
Carl Steward is the best.
So who’s gonna be in the pen next year?
Suarez/Cain as the long man
Law
Strickland
Gearrin
Kontos
Smith
Okert/Osich
And if they sign a closer, probably take out Kontos or Gearrin unless they go with a 13 man pen again.
Your math needs some work.
Sorry, 13 man pitching staff, not pen. So 5 starters, 7-8 relievers.
We were so close — if we would have won game 5 against the Cubs, no team could have beat us.
That’s why this hurts…I think if they win tonight they win game 5. And from that point on, with Bum, Cueto, and Moore, they’d be unstoppable in a 7 game series. Especially against weaker opponents than the Cubbies.
I think the Indians would be a very tough opponent in the World Series. That’s what I was thinking would happen.
I agree. Andrew Miller throwing multiple innings out of the bullpen is a huge weapon for them.
When leaders panic so do the followers. I know the pen was garbage but even a garbage pen can generally hold 3 run leads. Bochy panicking and deciding to go with a new pitcher for every hitter caused the pitchers to pitch scared. The Giants weren’t going to be able to hide the pen all postseason, but it was just so painful the way it imploded to end the season. In the end Bochy panicking in the 9th spread through the pen and the season is over. Priority number one is to get any and every RP that can prevent this from ever happening again.
I honestly think Bochy should ride off
I second that. And not necessarily in a mean way, but sometimes change can be a good thing. Bochy’s been around since what, 2007?
Exactly. It was a microcosm of Bochy spreading panic on the team the whole year. A leader is supposed to be calm and project calm. He was hysterical and projected hysteria.
Never go away from your hot hand. Moore was hot. Then you bring in Smith if Moore gives up batter. Lopez had no business in this game. Either did Romo who pitched the night before. It’s common sense and Bochy did what he has done the whole second half. He managed the game away. All the momentum was in the Giants hands. Cubs were realing. Giants were scoring runs and hitting the snot out of the ball. Lots of the ball hit the past two night are gone at Wrigley. This team was destined to kill the Cubs. Bochy threw it all away…just like the division.
Exactly. Bochy lets Lincecum throw 148 pitches in a no-no but won’t let Moore go beyond 116 in an elimination game where he’s still mowing them down? No Lopez is a no-brainer. I don’t care if he’s had more success or luck lately. This is playoff baseball. EVERYONE knows his velocity & strike rate is down. They’re gonna gamble & take. He’s become a serial walker so it’s a good risk. BOOM 2 men on, nobody out. Now the rest of our weak pen is put into the most hosed up situation they can be in.
So much for Bochy being a Match up genius with the Bull Pen right? He looks like a genius when the pitchers pitch well. He looks like a clown when they do not
For the second year in a row the Giants visiting teams clubhouse gets trashed by another teams celebrating. Now all that’s left to do is clean up another teams garbage. The ultimate insult to injury.
Good post GG. Straight to the point. Less is more.
I just got home from game and need to work off this steam..
I’m taking a break for a bit. Stop it- it’s rude to cheer at that. Now i might stay if you don’t stop. I’m a good GreekGiant you know, Nite all.
Doubt Romo be back.
Doubt Casilla be back.
Doubt Lopez be back.
Doubt Peavy be back.
Kontos questionable.
Cain questionable.
Hope Wotus and Raggs are back. Wotus could get some interviews.
Doubt Span is going anywhere. Doubt Pagan is back. Doubt Gregor is back. Mac has to be everyday LF with Gorkys #4 OF.
Doubt Pence is going anywhere. Parker.
Connor proved he’s legit. Keep Nunez.
Belt Panik Craw KT.
5 OF, 6 IF, 2 C, 12 P (need a third catcher)
Bum JC Moore Smarge Blach
We don’t need to carry 13 pitchers cuz our starters can go deep. Get a legit closer.
Suarez Law Smith Strick Gearrin Osich
So the 25 man goes like this:
Rotation:
Bum Cueto Moore Smarge Blach
Pen:
Suarez Law Strick Smith Gearrin Osich
and a Closer
Outfield:
Pence Span Mac Gorkys Parker
Infield:
Belt Panik Craw Connor Nunez KT
Catchers:
Buster Trevor
That’s all I got. I’m very sick.
What did you do with Cain’s contract?
It’s fun to do but you know there will be new players mixed in. Ignoring that, i think they would be inclined to move Span to left and put Hernandez in center. Not ignoring that, they’ll get a new outfielder for sure, clearly no confidence in the young ones that they have. I do think that Romo will be back, assuming they can sign him for less money.
Watching TV to get my mind off of what I just witnessed.
“Running Scared” is on…Billy Crystal is wearing a Cubs jersey.
Thanks Baseball gods, I get it.
City Slickers tonight?
One thing that just is a real ass scratcher is why didn’t Moore start the ninth? He didn’t appear to be showing any signs of tiring or fatigue. If anything, he looked stronger late in the game. Just simply baffling and difficult to get past.
what’s worse than a nightmare
I still can’t believe how fast it unraveled.
I went to bed after 6 figuring the Giants had won. I woke to astonishment that the Cubs came back.
Congrats to the Giants on a fine season. They have a Tremendous starting pitching staff and just need to refine their Bull Pen. The offense could use a big bat or 2. Look for an upgrade in Left and at 3rd if possible.
I would like to see the kid, Arroyo, given a shot at third.
Yes. Your ColdBrew™ is working for you. It is the spring that Arroyo could break in and Nunez is a Bench player (poor OBP but speed and decent glove).
Hey, let’s check out the Arizona Fall League that started yesterday for a few of the New Giants. I will find the link to EaseOurPain™.
Yes, EaseOurPain (how do you do the TM thingy?). I am with you on the AFL. Love to see the kids come up and play/succeed. Sure would like to see what Parker and Mac could do as a platoon in left. Or maybe not a platoon, but consistent playing time. I am now officially on the SF Giants KidWatch(TM)…Is that okay Mr. Commissioner?
Try this.
http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/ALTchrc-a.html
Cool. Thank you.
On the Mac it is Option 2.
Maybe Bochy will adjust some after reflecting on his season of failure but I doubt he’ll be inclined to start favoring rooks over vets. Pencil Nunez in at third, he did a good job and they need that speed in there everyday.
You`re probably right, but I would like to see Arroyo reach out and grab at whatever slight opportunity may exist and run with it…and explode on the scene.
.270, 3 HRs impresses you that much, that was Arroyo’s numbers in 2016 .
You have zero idea of how his hitting will translate to the majors…nobody does. Development does impress me. That`s what the minor leagues do…develop players. Why so argumentative all the time?
I like results, not HYPE, his results do not = the hype !!!
Who`s hyping Arroyo? I just want to see the guy develop!!! See what he`s got. Sheesh, Peter, what`s up with you? We`re just talking baseball here, not some mathematical equation where there are absolutes. Baseball is not just about numbers.
You said he should given a shot at 3rd for the Giants , that is hype .
Your definition of hype and mine are different. Hype is short for hyperbole. The word hyperbole is associated with exaggeration. It is not an exaggeration to suggest that Arroyo be given a shot at third.
He got it on the Radio, and by the prospect hounds, that over rate him, his production does not equal that hype .
Slowly…I did not hype Arroyo. I simply suggested he get a shot at third. The End.
I do believe that Arroyo will get to some of his power in the PCL next year – perhaps up to 15 HRs. And perhaps become a .280 avg, 15 HR big leaguer at the hot corner. He has good bat speed and quick, strong hands. With him, it’s a matter of backspin and launch angle.
Now you have to nudge us with some stories of why we should support your Cubs.
You have Kruk (said that on radio last night), since he was a Cub I guess.
I usually love rooting for an Underdog (108 year Drought qualifies for that) … but why does this Cub team leave me uninspired?
Please give me your best reasons to love these guys. And congrats to you for having a very good team there.
Nice try, but we won’t forget how you came on here mocking us and trolling us during games. I hope the stupid Cubs crash and burn.
Right now, I totally agree with you except if they play the dodgers.
I have a friend in Cleveland; maybe they can give us payback over these cubs?
How ironic would a Cubs-Indians World Series be? I’m gonna pull for the Cubs, 100+ years is long enough. Cleveland is still on my do-do list for taking out the Warriors.
Still can’t believe all those seeing eye grounders the Cubs got in the ninth and still can’t believe Crawford is the defensive goat with errors on plays he makes in his sleep. A bit tight there in the big moment.
Mocking and trolling? All a matter of perception. I have been on these boards for 5 years saying positive and negative things. I have pointed to hypocrytical and unfounded statements of the die hard fans , paid publicists or what I believe are inside Giants brass.
You can be a petty loser if you want to but I will root for the Giants when they are not playing the Cubs as I always have. I was raised a Cub fan based on where I lived. I became a Giant fan because of where I lived and raising a son who idolized Barry Bonds. We were both happy the Giants finally won a WS and 2 more times. We were both at the 2004 series game 2 and loved it. We both did not like it when they lost it.
You can call it want you want, good luck to the Giants next year. They have I believe the finest set of starting pitchers in MLB. They have far less holes to plug going into next year than this year.
Thank you Greek for setting up the new website for topics of discussion.
Medicine for the Broken Baseball Heart …
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/afl/index.jsp
I`m kind of surprised that Arroyo was left off of the AFL roster. Did I miss something, or is he too far along for the AFL? Or, not ready yet for the AFL? I thought he was in it last year.
He was in AFL last year. Next stop PCL as a stepping stone to the big time.
were you in LA earlier this week? things good?
Things good. Ma felt okay last nite, one day after – 3 down and one more to go. I will probably be down there for the 4th and final and celebrate. She’s handling this as well as I could have hoped for. Thank you for all your positives. And best wishes to everybody out there going through similar.
when’s the last one? tell her to keep hanging in there. we need her to help sort out the bull pen woes.
halloween
Good morning Haak. Way to stay on top of minor league events. Opening day action in the desert indeed.
Tim Tebow took on 0fer with the Scorps as he shared the OF with Hunter Cole. I figure Hunter is right behind Austin Slater on the Giants OF depth chart. Maybe he’ll put up some of those impressive #’s with Sacramento that get him knocking on the door.
Aramis Garcia 0 for 3 with 3 Ks.
Tyler Mizenko IP, 2 H, 0 R
Corey Taylor 1.2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K
I blame last night’s loss on Draymond. Man that guy has some bad jobu.
I agree with everyone here wondering why Moore wasn’t pitching the 9th, unless he said he couldn’t go…which I doubt. I guess what really bothers me after that is when has the multiple reliever solution in the 9th actually pay off? I know there’s no legit closer, but as Schmoltz was saying…kind of hard to get in any groove this way. Lopez can handle it, but the rest…not so much.
Anyway…this is going to hurt for awhile and the FO has some work to do. The last of the Core Four should be gone…
I don’t agree with that. He did enough and his pitch count was high. At that time, you have to think about saving him for another start later this season. If the bullpen can’t protect a 3 run lead for 1 inning then well they deserve to be where they are.
I do agree pulling relievers in and out doesn’t do any good. I felt that they should have started with Romo if that’s who they’re going to in big moments. Or leave Law in. One or the other. I also didn’t think Lopez should have ever come in.
Deserve, who cares about deserve , just win the game, save him for next year now !
Agree completely. And imagine the outcry if Matt faltered in the 9th. The same people would have eaten Bochy alive in this case.
I can’t root for the Cubs against anyone, even the Dodgers (I think, I’ll see how I feel if they play them). I personally dislike the Cubs because (a) they are a typical team (for example A’s teams) which relies on a lot of walks against bad pitchers to have a lot of one-sided games against bad teams which leads them to score a lot of runs for the reason and have a good run differential even though they can’t hit pitchers with control and so don’t do well in the playoffs even though the run differential makes people think that they’re great–they’re a smart-ass team, (b) a lot of Cubs’ fans play into this in an obnoxious way, acting as though their team has already won the World Series because they can run up the score against the Reds pitching staff for example, (c) Maddon is the ultimate smart-ass manager, switching for example players’ positions for no apparent reason (Cubs’ fans repeatedly cite this as evidence for his ostensible brilliance even though none of them can explain why he does any of it), (d) taking both Heyward and Lackey from their division rivals the Cardinals was a really low blow, (e) I despise Rizzo and his plate-crowding, (f) I despise Lester and his I’m-too-good-to-throw-to-first attitude, and (g) Chapman is Chapman.
This said, I can’t deny that there are also Cubs’ fans who aren’t obnoxious who deserve a champion once in their lives. And I have a soft spot for Kyle Hendricks. And I don’t see how anyone can not like Javy Baez, he’s just fun to watch.
Good morning all. What an empty, disappointing, and angry feeling, and I can only imagine what it’s like for the team. I feel for Moore, who had an outstanding performance, and the gutty offense that showed up to produce the lead.
But it’s all gone now.
Woke up my little girl for school this morning and, of course, her first question was who won. I told her the final score and how well Moore pitched through 8 innings. Just before I started to tell her about the 9th inning train wreck, she angrily squinted her eyes and just said, “Bullpen.”
Anyway, love this blog and its members. You make the season’s highs so much more enjoyable, and the lows easier to take (especially last night). Looking forward to the hot stove discussions and 2017 spring training.
I really feel for Moore. He pitched his guts out and deserved to be a hero instead of part of the bullpen goat.
Marcus Thompson with some truth-telling about Bochy’s “off” season. It’s respectful and fair, I think, but it’s honest.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/11/giants-needed-bruce-bochy-wizardry-but-he-didnt-have-it-this-time-either/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1476253064
Thanks – much better than Pav and Bags’ end of game stories.
Fact is Bochy had 2 months to figure out bullpen roles and he never did. That’s partly what the regular season is for, especially with the great 1st half the Giants had that gave him the buffer to tinker and try things. In the end, he showed a lack of creativity and went with his old standbys (Romo, Casilla, Javy, and even Hunter) and they failed him.
Yes–“what if” Bochy had pulled Casilla from the closer role after he’d blown four saves and had two other losses by the second week of June? Or after the balk-off game in July? They still had division leads at that point. Maybe there would have been some growing pains, but maybe the bullpen would have gelled by October instead of being the same nervous mess it was in May, July, and September.
And while we’re at it, “what if” Bochy had actually used the resources that Bobby Evans went out and got him at the trade deadline? Used an All-Star who was leading the AL in stolen bases at the top of the order instead of burying him? Used the lefty who’s supposed to be the new Affeldt for whole innings instead of as a LOOGY? Used Moore in Game 2–which was his normal spot after Cueto–or let Moore finish last night? (And while we’re on that, the argument for starting Samardzija in Game 2 was so that he could be in the bullpen for the rest of the series. Did he ever even leave the dugout and warm up in the bullpen in either game? I don’t think so.)
I was thinking about Samardzija too. Would have been interesting (and maybe open for a lot more criticism) if they brought him in to start the 9th yesterday.
i don’t think there was anything to figure out, the pen just plain sucked. that’s why, pitch count be damned, i’d have liked to have seen moore start the 9th. if he let up a hit, then take him out.
in the end, it really didn’t matter. the pitiful bull pen had to have gotten exposed eventually.
What if they had tried to develop Law as the closer as DrLefty has suggested many times? Or increased the role of Smith? Or move Samardzija to the pen?
I’m not suggesting that any of this would have been better but I would disagree that there was nothing to be done.
i didn’t say there was nothing to be done, just nothing to figure out.other than smarge, who was an effective starter early, then again, late in the season, bochy should have tried those things you suggested, and more. i just don’t think he had the talent out there to go much deeper than they did.
trust me, i’m not sticking up for bochy. most of the season he was worse than the pen.
i still think he yanked them around way too much. He panicked when a guy gave up one hit compared to sticking with Casilla through entire meltdown innings. That, to me, was the issue with how he handled the pen.
Yep. What happened last night was months of mishandling coming to an ugly conclusion.
They really don’t “suck.” Law had an excellent season. Smith was outstanding down the stretch. Strickland had some great outings. Kontos had a good year and maybe could have helped more. Bochy just wanted to go to the “tried and true” well of Casilla, Romo, and Lopez one more time this season. It’s understandable given their past successes, but it’s similar to starting the 2015 season with Cain, Lincecum, and Vogelsong in the rotation…wishing for the past and being blind to the present.
Thank you for the link. I agree, a fair piece. I am a big fan of Bochy`s but I think some valid points are made. I especially like the line “…a fitting end to a season that for months has felt like a tilted picture frame the Giants couldn’t straighten.”
This article is grossly unfair. Moore was at 120 pitches. What would be written if Moore started the inning (against a right hander Bryant) and let him on base? Bochy would have been roasted for leaving him in. The plan was well thought out and sound. The players– including Crawford — failed and caught a few bad breaks. This is on the,pm, not him.
As they say “victory has many father– defeat has only one. The long knives are out , with no justification. I am tryly disappointed by those. who seek to blame Boachy for the bullpen implosion. He is not perfect, but this is not on him
Well, you seem determined to let Bochy entirely off the hook for this. As I said last night, I admire your consistency.
Bochy is made of Teflon, for the media, KNBR this morning as well, the beat writers, and the fans that , say he won 3 in 5 , so he is never the problem .
That’s why I liked Marcus Thompson’s piece–he actually said that Bochy had been off all season, like many of us have also thought.
What’s sad is that if Bochy doesn’t take his fair share of the blame (and maybe Bobby Evans for not getting a closer in July), those young bullpen guys are going to take this into the future, being the goats of this disappointing season.
The last caller on KNBR, I can’t question Bochy, it never stops .
why listen?
Wanted to hear the KNBR reaction, I am a glutten for punishment .
Thankfully, I’m on a gluten-free diet
He was never on the hook for this except by disaapointed fans who believe who restrospectively believe that even sound decisions can not go wrong. That’s baseball.
How is bringing Lopez, a guy who’s been ineffective the entire season, in to face Rizzo “a sound decision”? How is yanking Law after four pitches “a sound decision”? How is bringing in Romo after two innings and a blown save the night before “a sound decision”? How is playing batter-to-batter match-ups, a strategy that has failed all season long, “a sound decision”?
I can’t think of one single “sound decision” Bochy made in that ninth inning. The minute he came out for Law and brought in Lopez–with Romo warming up–I KNEW we were in trouble. There was nothing “retrospective” about it.
Law threw a lot of pitches the night before so he was always going to be a one batter pitcher last night. Lopez had great numbers versus lefties and down the stretch he was quite effective. Romo had bern effective down the streych excecpt for Monday night– but that was true with Chapman too, not that I would compare them. Smith failed– helped by a Crawford error.
But the real question is, exactly what were the alternative with the situation at the time? Leave Moore in at 120 pitches.? Possibly, but you gotta believe that a major league bullpen ought to be able to get three outs without giving up 4 runs.
Many are acting like there was some obvious magic button that Bochy could have pushed to save the day but that he inexplicably failed to push it so its his fault.
I belive that this is overly simplistic thinking fueled by the disappointment of a gut wrenching loss. Believe me I am as disappoinrd as anyone else– likely moreso– but I can’t fault any of the decisions in the ninth. Indeed, as I wrote at the time I was ready to take Moore out for a pinch hitter in the sixth and certainly after he threw 7 straight balls to open upmthe seventh. It was a gutsy call to leave him in through the 8th, and a sound call to take him out for the 9th.
This is a horrible loss– make no mistake about it, but the bullpen and Crawford lost it in the ninth, not the manager.
This is beating a dead horse, but the soundness of a decision is not based on the outcome. It is based on whether it increased the chances if success, and by any measure in my opinion the ninth inning was managed perfectly. We just ran into the perfect storm, as happens in baseball and in life.
Your last paragraph is the one: I know you will not change your mind, and that’s fine. I won’t either…it is my strong opinion (proven to be pretty accurate given the results time and time and time again) that he Panic Managed the 9th….again. And it led to a loss. Again.
As a coach, mentor, leader, what is your biggest job? Create situations where those you oversee are put into situations to succeed; give then the support and confidence to be allowed to do the job you ask without micromanaging them. That builds confidence and success.
Those relief pitchers had their confidence shattered many times. They didn’t have roles set…at all. They were plates of spaghetti that Bruce threw against the wall to see what happened.
For you to say that Lopez was the right guy tells me that you are also living on what prior years told you. Lopez has had glaring difficulty all year coming in and throwing strikes. Why? Because he has nothing left and knows his strikes get crushed. So he nibbles, we lose. Smith got yanked after a ground ball got through….Bruce overmanaged. It wasn’t “managed perfectly” ….it was managed by a guy panicked by what was unfolding.
“As a coach, mentor, leader, what is your biggest job? Create situations where those you oversee are put into situations to succeed; give then the support and confidence to be allowed to do the job you ask without micromanaging them. That builds confidence and success.”
Yes. This.
Marcus put it perfectly, and without going over the top.
As I stated last night, this was a fitting end to this curious season
The tale of two (post) seasons: The great first half and the miserable second half. The inspiring wild card game and Game 3 win and then–last night.
This season was like a Batman villain: Two-faced.
good honest and fair write up.
bochy is a hof manager! i love bochy this year was not his best. he knows it. most of us know it. evans did not get closer. bad move. but in my opinion we had enough players in bp, along with our starters to have got the job done. the bp never developped a rhythm nor did they ever know their role just like last nights game in the 9th. bochy went too often this year to the ‘your time has past ‘ vets and mostly they just were not getting it done, that cost us to win the division, and the game last night.
I believe my eyes caught a sentence on the blog suggesting that “dark times lay ahead for the Giants with Bochy as the manager”. Hardly. I think that’s just getting caught up in the frustration of the moment and it’s just an echo of the frustration with the skipper who’s ship didn’t quite make it to the Golden Shores for the 4th time. The Hall of Fame manager had a rough go with the bullpen in the second half. The members of the bullpen never got in enough of a rhythm to give Bochy the confidence to establish his own rhythm. He was a conductor with some unreliable orchestra members.
This will change next year. The darkness will be illuminated. Evans will not let Bochy down by leaving him short of an anchor at the back end of his pen. Evans may also add a secondary piece to really establish a strong pen in ’17.
Mark Melancon would be my first choice. I’m sure the Nationals want him back – so maybe have to hope they fall out tomorrow or to Cubs. There will be plenty of time to speculate other options. Getting the ball to Melancon will involve young arms that are now ready and proven at the big league level.
RHP setup guys Law and Strickland are plenty competent and could be downright stellar in late innings.
LHP setup Will Smith proved his worth. A very solid option. Osich, Okert, and Blach represent depth from left side.
Reliable everyday George may be back in his familiar role. Albert Suarez can probably help here out as well.
Perhaps a second free agent/trade acquisition is the likes of Daniel Hudson, Joe Smith, or Brad Ziegler.
Bochy will be given options – strong, reliable options. And he will return to the form that has made him a true MLB maestro.
Your Bochy excuses are old, the 1st 3 pitchers he used in the 9th had thrown 35 Pitches Monday, a rusty over the hill ineffective lefty, and another pither that had thrown 32 pitches Monday , Nice choices Booch !
Would believe I have more faith in the decisions made by MLB lifers over some cats on the internet who may have never played baseball themselves? Astonishing.
WOW! that’s all you got !
Bless your heart, Peter.
Fixing the bullpen should actually be the easiest part of the offseason equation. Fixing the outfield and the depth/bench will be tougher.
But I think, like Surf Maui, you’re letting Bochy off the hook for the bullpen’s failures this year. He had months to figure it out, and he didn’t. As you note yourself, there was/is talent there. He stuck with Casilla way too long at the expense of figuring out roles for the other guys. And the ninth-inning matchups nightmare was very reminiscent of many other late-inning blow-ups this season. It never worked earlier and it’s not surprising that it didn’t work again last night.
It’s not all Bochy’s fault, but some of the blame lies on him. We’ll see if he’s learned anything.
This is still on Bochy staying with Santi Clause too long. Never worked it out past, “Well Serge has done it before”.
After Romo threw 32 pitches the night before and faced 8 batters you had to think of a different solution tonight. He tried to squeeze one batter here or one batter there.
EVERYTIME he did that in the second half it resulted in implosion. He got the same result last night. What did Einstien say about expecting different results?
He should have picked his guy the night before, after burning both Law and Romo on Monday. Be it Smith or Strickland or even heaven forbid Santi. Gave that guy the opportunity to have a clean inning and get it done.
He didn’t. He tried this same old death march. The same old I don’t trust any of y’all….. And got the same old result.
I can understand that approach during the August and September death spiral, trying to figure out when you exactly got to the situation he was in, who was the guy.
Bottom line: he got there and didn’t know, couldn’t choose and micro managed the club out of the playoffs.
As hard as it maybe, IMHO you have to give your choice more than one batter to show you something. Show him you have some confidence and let him relax instead of gripping that one mistake and the Melonhead will come get him.
This is why Sergio laughed. He got the job for 1 day, and Bochy fell into the death march. He knew the result that would follow….
I don’t agree that fixing the bullpen will be easy. Finding a dominant closer is going to be tough and throwing a ton of money at Melancon may not be the answer. Lopez, Romo, and Casilla may all be gone. Gearrin has been up and down… Lots of questions there. I agree with you though about playing matchups with multiple pitchers in an inning. It doesn’t work with this bunch and it creates a culture of doubt in the pen.
Wade Davis anyone? Risky and Beede + others prospect level expensive.
Thanks, Scout.
I was disappointed in many of Bruce’s decisions over the season. But I also got reminded why he is one of the best as the season winded down…all the way until last night, when Panic Man came back.
I’m not quite sure why you are focused on Melancon. If the Nats go deep and he likes it there, then won’t he stay? Plus, the one thing I will believe is that we do have potential closer material here, but none were given the chance while Bruce jacked them around.
Here’s what history tells me: Sabean is pissed. At Bruce. At the lack of production by the usual suspects. At 30 blown saves. At alot of things. I’m curious as to his reaction and actions, with his nice little yes man Evans
where some see panic, I see a formulaic response. He had those moves played out in advance like the chess player he is.
Melancon is Mr. Reliable. Mr. throw hard to hit cutters with sub 2 ERA and 40 saves.
His price tag won’t be as high as Chapman/Jansen. But still high. And yes, I alluded to WAS desire to retain.
Law certainly represents closer material, but what if he can’t handle the load – what if he gets injured. Then if Law is the closer, need someone to fill his set up role.
Multiple ways to skin this cat, and I’m sure Evans is already drawing up the plans.
I agree that they should do whatever it takes to get a quality closer. I have no problem with Law, who just turned 26, being a valuable set-up man, also seeing how his arm holds up. There’s time for him to become the closer.
I’m one of the few, apparently, NOT sold on Law as a closer. Yet. He looks more like the new kid in class everyone is enamored with.
Here’s one stat I saw that made me think. With the postseason, the Giants played 167 games. They blew 32 saves (two of those in the postseason).
That means we–fans, players, front office–were experiencing a late-inning meltdown on average once every five days. That’ll rip the heart out of a team (and a fan base).
yes saw that one too and made a bigh sigh sound out loud.
Couple that with Zero come from behind wins in the 9th and it is deady to say the least. So there are 2 issues thatt need fixing, hitting late in the game to come from behind and stop the blown saves. The second is the easier one to reduce, the first?
I don’t buy that the Giants couldn’t have won the World Series with the team–specifically the bullpen–they had this year. The hitter were coming around, they scored 11 runs the past two games. Bochy just leaves Moore in the 9th–he had retired 8 batters in a row and was cruising–does anyone seriously think he couldn’t have gotten through the 9th? And Cueto vs. Lester in game 5? The Cubs’ hitters were dead in the water until the 9th, only Bryant and Baez were even hitting .200, and the Giants’ hitters were heating up, of the starters only Pence and Crawford were hitting under .250 and Panik and Gillaspie were well over .400. And does anyone think the Giants couldn’t have beaten the Dodgers, who can’t hit left-handers at all, given what happened the last weekend of the season? Or the Nationals, who are held together with tape and wire? And in the World Series neither of the possible AL teams look too tough, the Indians are completely banged up and the Blue Jays are just a vastly inferior version of the Cubs. I won’t deny that I was concerned that Francona would have managed circles around Bochy to the extent that the Indians might have won, but it would have been a good series.
This isn’t a great team but they definitely could have gone all the way.
Bochy blew it. I was among his staunchest defenders up to a month ago but there’s no deny that he just blew it and I don’t think he has the mind to be able to do better in the future. The truth is that the earlier Giants’ teams were good enough, especially in the bullpen, that Bochy didn’t have to be a genius for the Giants to go all the way, but this team needed a better manager than Bochy is to have reached its potential.
Yep. That’s what’s so frustrating. A great rotation can take you a long way, and as you said, the bats had come around, even against the Cubs’ great pitching. They were poised to make a run. And then all of a sudden–over. Just like that.
The only similar case I can think of is 2011, when the Giants had amazing pitching–rotation AND bullpen–but the offense shriveled up and died and Aubrey Huff was out there in the middle of the order every blessed day. It was like watching a long, slow nightmare unfold. This season was like that, too.
I mean look at how they were handling the Cubs hitters. First game nothing until Baez’ homer in the 8th. Second game Samardzija idiotically refuses to throw a curve the first two innings and after than it’s only Woods’ homer. Third game Bumgarner only gives up a three-run homer to Arrieta and after that nothing (though 13 innings) other than Bryant’s homer. And yesterday. Moore gives up 2 hits–TWO HITS–and one earned run through 8 innings, and then gets stopped by the only person who could stop him, Bochy. Tell Samardzija to throw curves the first time through the order, stop the Cubs’ pitchers from hitting, and leave Moore in the game–should all be no-brainers–and the Cubs get the grand total of 5 runs in 40 innings, and one of these was because Crawford threw away Baez’ grounder.
My friend who’s a Cubs fan couldn’t believe how bad they’re bats looked. He’s watched them all year look like the 1920s Yankees.
I get it and maybe the rotation could have carried them but I’m not sold on the offense. They were completely inept at Wrigley after getting “hot” during the final stretch of the regular season. I think what we are seeing is that by beating the best team–by far–in the playoffs how could they not be able to beat everybody else? It doesn’t always work like that. And I know the Cubs would’ve been worried but everybody assuming the Giants would’ve won Game 5 is a bit of a stretch. They would have a had a great shot but who’s to say they score enough off Lester and the Cubs pen on the road? I just think the pen would’ve gotten them at some point and it got them in the most improbable, historic fashion possible. They certainly *could* have won the WS but I think this team was the most flawed offensively and pen wise of any of the three championship teams. It had the best rotation but that rotation would’ve had to throw nearly every inning.
Game Over! Lights have faded on another campaign and the long cold winter awaits us! That’s even harder then last nights defeat imho. Have a wonderful day folks.
BTW friends ive always had the ability to hide pain but but last nights defeat is really trying me.
Krukow spin, Javier Lopez been great, who saw that walk coming !
you feeling alright this morning PJ?
NO, just wanted to hear what the KNBR people would say, pretty much are saying what I thought they would
I did! I did!
Javi knows his stuff is gone and dead…so he nibbles. The two results I expect from Javi:
A nibble the edges walk or a strike crushed somewhere.
He was not the lefty to go to in that situation
Did he really say that? I saw that walk coming WHEN LAW CAME INTO THE GAME. I was like ‘Why is Law coming in? He’s obviously not going to pitch the whole 9th, so why is he coming in?’ I thought about it, what Bochy could possibly be thinking of and I suddenly remembered that Rizzo was up after Bryant, I realized the ridiculous plan Bochy had concocted, and I knew there was serious trouble ahead, because unlike the first three games, Rizzo was no longer swinging at every low and outside pitch he saw. I hoped against hope that he’d bring Smith in for Rizzo but I knew it wouldn’t happen, Bochy would never entrust such an important situation to his best reliever, he had to relive 2012 one more time with the same pitcher who’d walked countless hitters in countless one-batter appearances already this season (I mean the one other than Osich).
Yes he said that, Krukow is what he is , he mostly said the rally was just bad luck .
Bingo…I was in lock step with you last night…you could see what was going to unfold with each self inflicted knife wound
I really get a bad taste in my mouth whenever the Giants use the JT Snow HR vs Benetiz as a highlight because we lost that game and ulitmately the series. I’m pretty sure there are many others that feel the same.
Perhaps the wounds are still too fresh but will Conor Gillaspie’s highlights from this postseason (you know the Giants will hype it up) always lead to bitterness because they are attached to a nuclear bullpen meltdown that we all knew was coming but hoped could be staved off for a few weeks?
There is one distinct difference that may be a factor. (Mind you, I’m writing these thoughts after witnessing said meltdown firsthand at the yard last night.) The Giants constantly turned to the JT Snow HR highlight when we were still on a quest for an SF World Series title. So the repeated use of the highlight over the following years only served as a reminder of the failures to bring a WS title to SF.
Flashforward to 2016 and three WS titles later and its likely that Gillaspie highlights dont carry the same weight in emotional baggage but the higlights will bring “carry on” baggage as a failed attempt to bring a fourth title home.
I don’t think Gillaspie’s heroics will lead to a bad taste because his two biggest hits — the HR, and the triple — were games that we won.
Woke up at 4am. Can’t believe the season is over. I really think if they hang on last night they win game 5 and would have an excellent chance to go all the way with their starting pitching in a 7 game series. Worst feeling since game 6 2002. Guess I’ll have to figure out something to do now without baseball.
To those who say that “Moore was at 120 pitches…he was done”….
In LA, as he chased personal glory, he was given 133 pitches. So, Bruce felt it was OK to “risk” (your logic, not mine) his arm for personal history, but NOT OK to “risk” in an elimination game? He was dominating last night. Period.
To those who say Bruce was right to bring in Methuselah Lopez to face Rizzo: Bobby Evans gave Bruce a gift of Will Smith for that very situation. Bruce decided against using HIM? As much as I’ve criticized Evans…
Bruce is HOF. Bruce brought us past glory. That clubhouse of very smart, hard working, team oriented men are surely questioning some things…their shelf life is very finite. This can’t sit well
The move to Lopez was probably the most indefensible. He should not have been near that high leverage of a situation. But Bochy had been playing him all year as if it was earlier in the decade.
That’s the one move I really had issues with more than anything else. Bochy never realized that Lopez has stunk pretty much all year
I think many of us are in agreement. Of all the questionable moves that’s the one that gets me the most by far. It was so clear all year that Lopez had absolutely nothing left. Allowing the tying run to come to the plate for free was the one that set everything in motion.
Yup.
I can’t fault Bochy for going to the bullpen in the ninth. By itself, i get it, and if someone comes in for a 1-2-3 ninth, no one bats an eye.
But his whole plan for that inning was just awful, and made little sense. I doubt it made sense to the players in the game. That doesn’t excuse the poor pitching, but Bochy didn’t put anyone in a position to succeed in the ninth.
Putting your players in a position to succeed and get the best out of them is the definition of a manager. With regards to the bullpen at the very least, Bochy has become the Anti-Manager.
I just re-read Baggs’ article from a few weeks ago that first mentioned Bochy’s bullpen use: “It is a loosely guarded secret that his matchup-heavy management of the bullpen has caused disenchantment if not confrontational fury among most of his relievers, even going back to the first half.”
Last night’s 9th inning sums up “match up heavy management” to a T. Wonder what’s going on behind closed doors after this season ending loss.
Moore had done everything he could. If a team needs every one of its starters to throw 135 pitch complete games then it’s a team with major issues. That is not sustainable throughout the entire postseason. Little league teams can get 3 outs before giving up 3 runs. If a pen cannot hold that lead then it is a team destined to fall short. I understand you “play for today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow” sentiment but the same bullpen issue would not go away whether it was one more game (Game 5) or the NLCS or even World Series.
Anyone defending bringing in Lopez is just plain crazy. The guy was terrible this year. He has been a great, great Giant but he was clearly done this year. He has nothing and I had NO doubt in my mind that Rizzo would reach base. That was the key. Allowing the tying run to come to the plate with nobody out via a free pass. I would have started the inning with Smith. He’s not a LOOGY and had been great down the stretch. Or start it with Strickland to face Bryant. Not one of the youngest guys coming off TJS who threw 35 pitches the night before.
But in the end I cannot emphasize enough, a major league bullpen should be able to hold a 3 run lead every f%^&*@# time. No team in the HISTORY OF THE POSTSEASON has given up 4 or more runs in the 9th with a 3 run lead. The Giants bullpen was historically awful this year and it was going to get them eventually. It just really, really sucks that it happened in the way it did. I thought it would happen on the road in a 7th/8th inning in a tie game or 1 run lead. I did not envision a choke job of such historic proportions. I can only hope the Giants pour whatever money is necessary into the pen to never let this embarrassment happen again.
Do you think Bruce in any way maximized their talent? Built their confidence? Solidified their roles? Had their backs?
When QB’s are rotated by NFL coaches, the results are usually very bad. Both QB’s are looking over their shoulder…same here. The talent may be there (I think it is) but they have NO IDEA what the role-of-the-day will be
I am in no way absolving Bochy. He bears the lion share of the blame for that 9th inning last night. As I said, I would’ve started the inning with Smith and still have not figured out why he is so hesitant to use Smith in the 9th. Ultimately Bochy continually going back to the Casilla, Lopez, Romo well was the downfall of the team. Romo blew it in Game 3 and the double effectively blew it the next night.
Lefty has made the point, and I agree, that if Bochy removed Casilla as closer when he should have then maybe definable bullpen roles could have been established. I disagree that the talent is there. Certainly *some* talent is there, but as a whole there was not enough talent there. Again the majority of the blame goes to Bochy’s bullpen usage but it’s not all on him. He had poor options to choose from, he just made the worst choices of the options he was given.
How are Smith’s splits vs. lefties? How does Rizzo fare vs. sidewinding lefties that can sweep ball away from his power? Lots of info goes into decision making. Often there is info unavailable to those of us with only fangraphs at our disposal.
Smith has been Great lately, go with your hot pitcher .
Hot and had only thrown like 8 pitches the night before.
Who cares what the numbers on a spreadsheet say…I ask this: what are Lopez’s results? He’s got nothing left. We all love him. We all thank him…he knows the tank is empty…he nibbles away and walks WAY TOO MANY. If the ball leaks out over the plate, watch out.
Speaking of Fangraphs, Dave Cameron has a whole piece about why in the world didn’t Bochy trust Will Smith–not just last night but since he was obtained.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-one-way-ill-second-guess-bruce-bochy/
Great article! And interesting that Bochy’s bullpen use (or at least Smith) is not just noticed by us locally.
I pointed out the 133-pitch almost no-no vs. the 120-pitch almost epic post-season win last night. I can see if Moore was tiring, but he was getting stronger as the game went on last night. Bochy has been wildly inconsistent this year. In the past in a money game, he would’ve let the starter go for it with high pitch counts, like with Bum, Timmy, Cain, etc. But yanked Moore while he was dominating. As infuriating as it is, it is doubly so, when considering that Bochy even abandoned principles that worked for him in the past.
Go after a no-hitter but not a win in an elimination game.
Bochy wears the cone of shame for this season.
“Bochy wears the cone of shame for this season.”
It was a dark and stormy night…
Ah you can’t appreciate the melodrama? Just when it applies so relevantly?
Truth is, I’ve been on a Faith No More kick lately, and “Cone of Shame” is the song I’ve been listening to, primarily. I think that’s how it made its presence felt there.
Methuselah…haha. Misery brings out great comedy.
See the Dave Cameron piece about Will Smith: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-one-way-ill-second-guess-bruce-bochy/
It’s interesting. Evans went out and got Will Smith, knowing the bullpen desperately needed help. Yes, we wish he’d gotten Miller or Melancon, but that wasn’t in the cards, apparently. He also went out and got a speedy leadoff hitter having a great year, knowing that Span wasn’t the guy they thought/hoped they were signing.
Bochy refused to use either Smith or Nunez to take advantage of their greatest strengths. He consistently just had Smith pitch to one or two guys instead of whole innings. He mostly buried Nunez at the bottom of the order where his speed and power were somewhat wasted.
Was it just deference to veterans like Span, Casilla, Romo, and Lopez? Or is there a bit of a power struggle between Bochy and Evans?
A little bit of all that. But whatever it is, there is poison flowing through that team.
Is it possible that Bochy is Sabean’s guy and Evans and him were forced together and Evans needs to hire his own guy?
‘He also went out and got a speedy lead off hitter having a great year, knowing that Span wasn’t the guy they thought hoped they were signing.”
Evans told you that?
The resigned look of polite exasperation on Will Smith’s face after Bochy yanked him after one hitter last night told the whole story of the bullpen mismanagement.
By the time he brought him in it was too late.
It was just a kick in the balls to unnecessarily throw Smith into that situation after it was made for him. He was lights out down the stretch and STILL was cast aside for Lopez when it mattered. Who the hell on this entire PLANET believed that Lopez was his #1 lefty? Oh, that’s right…BOCHY.
I still don’t know why he didn’t start the inning with Smith. To me it was a pretty easy call. I was perplexed as to why Law started it having pitched 35 pitches the night before and absolutely incredulous when he brought in Lopez. The key AB to the inning was Lopez allowing the tying run to come to the plate, with nobody out, for free.
Because it was a righty. Lol. That’s the logic Bochy had. Play the matchups. Not the fact that Smith was fresh and had a 1-2-3 inning last night. Apparently that meant nothing at all. ESPECIALLY making him the #2 LOOGY. Horrific mismanagement.
How about Romo? Although in Romo’s case I’m sick of him showing Bochy up.
Geezus can you blame Romo anymore? Ridiculing was almost appropriate!
A clown car or an untrained seal could manage a bullpen better than Bochy right now. It seems downright absurd to say so with Bochy’s track record, but it is the truth.
No you’re right. It’s really ridiculous and as has been said by others, it leaves the players with no confidence.
“‘Geezus can you blame Romo anymore? ”
One word YES.
Chef, Bochy’s usage of the pen down the stretch and in that game last night made ridicule almost necessary. He effectively made every one of them look over their shoulder all year, having to be perfect to just make it past one hitter! That’s not putting anyone in a good mind set or a position to succeed. And it’s crazy, because Bochy always did a great job of doing that, putting faith in key players, and always managing the bullpen like a wartime general.
I think all the Romo “showing up Bochy” experiences were simply one of many relievers driven crazy by a manager who had no idea what he was doing with his bullpen. I think he laughed into his glove in utter disbelief, like many of us laughed into our hands.
Even if I agreed with everything else you say, that’s not the way to go out.There is never an excuse to disrespect the manager in public. Romo was doing a shtick, mocking Bochy- that is just wrong and there is no way to justify it.
Correct. For that alone Romo should be dumped. He should know better and he failed twice in crucial situations in the last two games. This is coming from a Romo fan here folks.
Romo was a disaster in this series. He had many great moments but his time as a Giant is up. And showing up Bochy again after effectively blowing the most important game of the year (after blowing the previous night’s most important game of the year) was absolutely classless.
Fair enough. Lotta madness going on this year.
Pence was pretty frigid, but Brandon Belt sure went cold at the wrong time as well. With Span and Posey going good, if Belt had been able to continue his hot streak out of the two hole, the Giants would still be playing. Other than the sac flies, mostly bupkis. Tough time to hit the skids, and suede goats strike again.
You got a great Trade coming right !
Right. Belt to Toronto for some random knick-knacks was his most recent attempt.
“Random knick-knacks.”
LOL
IIRC, a backup catcher and a relief pitcher (Biagini) whom the Giants thought so much of that they let him go in the Rule 5 draft. Something else, too, but I forget.
Ha! – GG caliber CF, a backup catcher, Biagini for fun, and a top pitching prospect (Sean Reid-Foley)
that was all for fun though. Belt stays put, toots.
🙂
Oh come on.
They scored plenty to get to a Game 5. Belt’s counterpart hadn’t exactly been lighting it up either. I know what you’re saying, we were all hoping to see Belt stay hot and ride that through the postseason. But last night’s game was one unit of the team.
The Giants scored plenty of runs in Games 3-4, and Belt was involved in several of the ones in Game 3, driving in one and scoring another. The only way “the Giants would still be playing” is if Belt had pitched in relief in the ninth inning last night.
Nice try, though, putting a manager/bullpen fail onto Belt. Even for the President of the Belt Bashers Club, that’s a new low for you.
No. That’s pretty fair. It’s not to say he’s a failure, because he’s a very good player – as is Pence. It was just a tough time to hit the skids after he seemed to have a good swing going. I expect another solid year at the plate and more excellence in the field in 2017. I also expect more mischaracterizations from you.
Span had a great series.
Span had a great two games. He did nothing in Game 2 and didn’t play Game 1.
It’s some pretty interesting revision when you and Scout are acting like Span was a hero when in reality he was a brutal disappointment for 90% of the season and by far the worst of the free-agent signings and trades Evans did. Meanwhile, Belt, who had a fine season, is somehow to blame for the bullpen imploding last night.
Crawford’s two errors were a larger problem than anything Belt did or didn’t do
I do agree that Bochy ran a circus last night bringing in guys, but let’s think of the opposite. Showalter left his closer on the bench in their wildcard game.
One thing I’ve always appreciated about Bochy is his aggressiveness in the playoffs. Like Torre, he will not let a starter go 5 just because, or be afraid to take his closer out if he’s struggling.
Maybe he went too far last night but what was his strength may have just become his weakness.
I know we can play what if games about the game last night all day, but that pitch that Hunter made to Baez. That bugs the %%$$$ out of me. 0-2 and he pitches a fastball high and all over the plate. He started with a devastating slider that Baez had no chance on. And he lets him get away with that? Argghhhh.
I figured that hot dog would be the guy. He had hurt them all series. With 1st base open, I actually thought they might pitch around him.
The Will Smith trade is becoming more and more of a mystery to me. You trade Bickford and Susac away to get this guy. What exactly are you doing that for, if your manager only sees him as #2 LOOGY? Does the GM communicate with the manager at all before a trade “hey man, i’m thinking of making this trade, how will you use him?”. Anything like that at all? Because if I’m Bobby Evans i’m really wondering what that trade was for then, if not for situations like last night.
I’m only guessing… but maybe the early trouble Smith had after the trade turned Bochy off? He’s funny. He’s loyal to a fault to “his” guys but he’ll quit on you quick if he doesn’t warm to you (see Blanco, Kelby, etc.).
There is a major problem in the management side right now. It’s poisonous. This team did have what it took to get there again, and you can’t blame Evans for that. He went out and got Moore and Nunez was never utilized for his speed during the year. And Smith was a #2 LOOGY after the big trade. It’s borderline comedy, and I don’t think Evans is to blame.
The Bull Pen may have collapsed and coughed up the lead, but the offense all season long never came back in the 9th inning. You can say they were up against an elite closer in Chapman but the Giants knocked him around the night before. The Giants have also in the past knocked around many of the best closers in the league. How does one correct the glaring weekness in the ability to come from behind in the 9th?
It is not the pitching, it is the hitting
It was a 3 run 9th inning lead. In no way, shape or form was that game on the offense. The lack of 9th inning comebacks were maddening but no way on earth should they have needed one last night.
Just pointing out that was 1 game, they lost 2 of those games by 1 run. They did not come back in any of those games as well as any game in the regular season. It is fine to point out the blown save against the BEST offense in the NL but to not criticize the offense to come back is wrong. The years past, that was their signature.
Careful on the CAP LOCK there. The only stat they led in Offense in the NL was OBP.
They came back and won several times on the Giants; they are a top offense for sure.
Still hoping you give me some reasons to like your guys. Hendricks is a “good story” I heard … what is that about?
I do not consider statistics from a team that plays 50% of their games in Colorado as valid. Therefore the Cubs are first in RBI’s, Runs Scored, OBP, OPS. The Runs scored is really the major stat above all else.
Away Stats eliminate that problem;
Runs Scored? That puts the Cardinals at the top; cubs #2 though.
Inconsistency is the hardest thing to fix or manage. Intermittent problems in computers, cars, people can make it a guessing game. No one in the pen established themselves as reliable in 2016. Bochy has two strategies to make a decision on pitching. He can go by the numbers as he did in 2010 and 2012 using Lincecum in relief. Or he can manage by listing to his intuition as he did in game 7 of the 2014 and rode Bum to the finish line.
He was faced with rolling the dice and making a decision on who to trust. He chose this time numbers and I think gut and came up craps, game over. His options were limited to pitchers who were inconsistent. I’m not saying he made the right choice, Law, Lopez for different reasons, were the wrong choices. But nothing else seem to work. He had no clear choice as all had failed at closing out a game.
Is he the same manager as the guy who has 3 rings yes. But in the end he was bound to lose as the players did not perform.
He had one very obvious option. Leave Moore in the game.
I posted it last night, the only 2 bullpen pitchers I would have used in the 9th were, Smith and Strickland, Law had thrown 35 Pitches Monday, Romo had thrown 32 pitches Monday, Lopez has been bad all year , and had walked many batters in those situations, Bochy, went to Smith and Strickland way to late, out of desperation .
Yep, he only summoned Smith and Strickland after Law, Lopez and Romo put them in a position to lose. The fangraphs piece about Bochy’s reluctance to use Will Smith posted by others below is excellent and is something Bochy needs to explain. Smith is one of the, if not the, best relievers on the team. He is not a LOOGY. Do not use him as one, and the number two LOOGY in the pen at that.
He’ll have to answer that to Evans too. Evans didn’t give up Bickford and Susac for a #2 LOOGY. He was acquired to be an Affeldt.
He was acquired to be an Affeldt but by the end of the year he was by far the best candidate to be a closer.
So if Law gets the MVP to ground out or if Javy induces the double play, it’s all good.
Damnit! Baseball is cruel!
You love it, and if I did not care who won , I would too, but it would not be as fun when my team won, and would not hurt so much when they lost .
It IS cruel…and that’s why it’s important to have a captain of the ship that can naturally make the best moves available.
I get why you’re trying to paint a “big picture” defense for Bochy last night. Here’s the problem: That game was as “Small Picture” as a game can get. It was an elimination game. Bruce had a very, very bad 9th inning when the season depended on a good 9th
It was actually a good game until the 9th. But in the ninth, we knew what was gonna happen after the first two batters.
The pitching changes were excessive but nobody was getting anyone out. I am getting tired of all of these pitching changes. That has to change.
I used to be sympathetic to the Cubs, but not anymore. Sort of like the Red Sox. Having seen them, they really aren’t _that_ good, and their on field arrogance is annoying. And Baez has mustard all over him.
I think we should cool it with the recriminations. Yes, I would have let Moore pitch to Bryant. Yes, Bochy made too many pitching changes. But let’s face it, we’ve had this bad bullpen for months now and it was bound to blow up at some point.
We have a good hitting club, much to my surprise. Fourth in the league, and better than Chicago. Our problem is lack of power and runs scored. In both, we are below average.
Chicago’s strength was their starting pitching, best in league. But having seen them, I’m not impressed with their offense.
Hollow BA means nothing, run production means everything. So I wouldn’t call the Giants a “good hitting club.” But the offense impressed the hell out of me in Games 3 and 4. They did more than enough to win both of those game. I was proud of how the offense rebounded after their inept showing at Wrigley. And sickened by the ineptitude of the pen, which you are correct, was a powder keg that was going to blow sooner or later. In this series, 2 save opps and 2 blown saves.
I thought Moore gave them everything he had to get through 8. At 120pitches, with the meat of the order up, to me it was a no brainer to go to the pen.
Think they liked Law’s curve vs Bryant over Strickland heat. Then you use Lopez just for Rizzo, rather than burn Smith for one batter. Then Romo to close it out.
Yeah, One could argue Smith to get Rizzo and leave him in to face Zobrist and try and get the 3rd out. My one criticism of Bochy is not trusting Smith vs RH’s.
Hopefully more liberal use of Smith next year. He’s a beast that can soak up innings.
But I like your thought process here – making an effort to decode Bochy’s actions.
Scout, we ALL know how to decode Bruce’s actions. We all have opinions.
A team that leads the league in blown saves means that the manager and players failed.
All have different thought processes.
You’re right. The general manager, manager, and players failed at closing out games this year. Evans couldn’t get the right personnel. Bochy didn’t push the right buttons. The players didn’t execute their pitches.
I believe Smith is a FA, so he may no be with the Giants.
He’s controlled through 2019. He’ll be with the Giants for at least 3 more years.
Disconnect…1 year contract in 2016, then arb eligible until 2016. I recall them mentioning that his contract ended after 2016, so I’ve assumed he was a rental all this time. Would love to see him as the 8th inning guy, with a legit closer next season.
or is it 2? and Moore is three? or both three!?
Smith = Free Agent in 2020.
If you think that it was a no-brainer to go to the pen in the 9th, then either this is the first Giants’ game you’ve seen this year or you have no brain.
He did his job. To expect Moore is absurd second guessing.
What do you do the rest of the way, have every starter throw a CG?
This has been a difficult concept for people to process. Not every SP throughout an entire postseason run can throw CGs. The pen has to be relied upon at many points throughout any postseason run. If a pen cannot get 3 damn outs before giving up 3 runs then you’re not going to have a shot.
well said.
One game at a time, I think they should of got those 3 outs, then play Thursday and see what happens, I hate this they never had a chance with this bullpen any way , so not a big deal attitude by some posters .
That’s not the implication. The point I am trying to make is for people to back off saying Moore should’ve gone out there. No excuse for not getting 3 outs without giving up 3 runs. None.
Why? Because an arbitrary number was reached on a pitch count, Bochy chose to go to a known weakness in an elimination game.
It was the heart of the order and we don’t know for sure what Moore had left. He finished strong but doesn’t mean he breezes through the 9th. And if he got in trouble then the maligned pen would’ve been worse off. I just don’t see what it wasn’t Smith or a combo of Smith and Strickland. But to me it was simple, give the ball to your best RP who was very well rested.
We knew for sure that the bullpen was not reliable.
Not talking about you specifically, others have used that as way to not be crushed by last nights loss, I am still crushed .
I agree, man. I am quite crushed by this one. Hell, I was crushed by Strickland blowing a 3 run 9th inning lead against the Padres at home in September. This one eliminated the Giants. It’s devastating and there’s no way around it. I’m not trying to minimilize it or give some philosophical “it’s just sports” life perspective. Just saying I didn’t disagree with pulling Moore. I disagree with who Bochy used (and how many he used) when he did.
…even in that one, it wasn’t JUST “Strickland”…Bochy got the yips and brought in Okert. The fact is Bruce either went way too long (Casilla) or way too short….all 2nd half
Dude needs porridge lessons
It was proven throughout the season that the bullpen had a real problem holding leads. Should they have just conceded and said “sorry MLB, but our bullpen can’t hold leads, so we don’t have a shot. Choose someone else?” Obviously not. Instead, you take your best shot. When you have a starter who’s going strong, you stick with him. If you have to go to the bullpen, you use your best pitchers (hello, Will Smith). You definitely don’t use the revolving door strategy that so often failed before.
Are those difficult concepts to process? I don’t think they are for the players, many of whom, I believe, aren’t too happy with Bochy.
This is where we differ and agree at the same time. I say pull Moore, he was at 120 pitches. I would have without blinking put in Smith. He’s the best RP and I have no doubt in my mind he would have gotten 3 outs without giving up 3 runs. The revolving door strategy in panic managing that permeates through to the players. I thought given the respective workloads and “talent” in the bullpen Smith was the obvious choice. Bochy for whatever reason does not have full confidence in him and went revolving door.
What about Moore’s 133 pitches while going for a no hitter? Pacman said it well. Allowing Moore to throw that many while chasing a personal goal but not permitting it in an elimination game doesn’t make much sense.
hey…it was me that said that
Let the record reflect that it was Matthew who said that. My apologies.
I need all the TO love I can get
Bochy’s constant switching of pitchers just projected a sense of panic and created a situation where no pitcher can get into any kind of rhythm. That was the story of the whole year.
Spot on! This is the key problem of the bullpen usage.
I think he would cop to some of that, but it was largely because he had a flawed staff.
Obviously Casilla the big issue. Osich sucked. Gearrin, their most effective reliever in the first half, got hurt and wasn’t effective in the 2nd half. Romo was hurt until July? Lopez was awful all year. They got Smith and he was lousy for the first month. Law went down. Things were so desperate, they added a 41 yr old.
This was just a very shaky bullpen all year.
Gearrin was in fact incredibly effective in September, just take a look at his stats. No one even noticed.
At the same time, professional relievers are expected to be able to get hot in the bullpen and be able to compete with the first batter they face. That’s the nature of the job.
You watched the bullpen in 2016? You can argue the point, but it absolutely wasn’t a “no brainer.” As for Smith, he was their best reliever down the stretch and is also effective against RHBs.
Is Bochy still in denial of how he managed this team? Still even last night, he just hemmed and hawwed his way through the post-game conference.
What is he going to say? Do you expect him to change his philosophy of handling pitchers and second-guess himself in front of the media? That’s our job.
He did change his philosophy this season. Never before had he done so much of the one batter per pitcher thing that so often didn’t work in 2016.
He doesn’t need to second-guess himself, but taking some accountability or giving some acknowledgement of the role he played would help, IMHO.
I would love to see that. I think we all would but who knows… he needs to write a tell all book… Bochy is still a great manager. He had a bad night, we all do. He is right more often than he is wrong and the truth is, he did not have great choices in the bullpen the way he used to.
Murph and Mac (who I don’t always like) make a good point. If there’s no pitch count listed anywhere, if it’s not in the stadium, if nobody tells Bochy about it, do you leave Moore in? Based on the situation and how Moore’s throwing, ABSOLUTELY.
The team keeps track .
Yes, but the point is that Bochy likely removed Moore based solely on the # of pitches thrown. Not how he’s feeling, how well he’s throwing, etc.
Brandon Belt is the best hitter on the Giants. Also the best first baseman.
He led the team in OPS at 868, 60 pts higher than Posey who was second. Led the team in home runs. Led the team in walks. Second in RBI’s (two behind Crawford), second in Runs scored (5 behind Posey). Also #1 in Doubles.
Brandon Belt is a good Giant. He is not the problem.
He’s certainly the best rate productive offensive player on the Giants. Buster is still the best hitter.
I think we know that the problem is the pen. Having another hitter in the lineup with similar or better rate production as Belt and Posey would certainly help. If Joe Panik gets his swing going, he may be the 2nd best hitter on the Giants – a .300 type hitter.
Kind of sad that Romo, Lopez, and Casilla, despite their contributions to 3 titles, have their last pitches as Giants end in such a sad way.
Tim Flannery on KNBR kind of deflecting blame a bit, but basically saying that someone in the bullpen needs to get it done. He said everyone had a shot at it, but nobody stepped up. Not entirely true. Smith and Law, probably the two best relief pitchers, never really had a shot at closing (not counting Law last night since he came in after 2 innings the previous night). And others had a very brief shot without really a chance to settle into the role, like Strickland.
On August 23. Moore threw 133 pitches trying to get a no hitter. Bochy doesn’t let him finish the job in the biggest game of the year but let’s him try for a personal goal 2 months before. That pretty much says it all.
So, what team(s) will folks follow, if any, for the remainder of the playoffs?
Indians
Won’t follow actively (except for whatever you all discuss here), but go Indians. woot.
Cubs vs Indians to get one of those cities off the schnide…..
I’ll pull for Nats or Indians. I don’t hate them. Dodgers, of course not. Cubs, not after this display of lo viste arrogance.
I think the Cubs are like kids in their first party, so I excuse their exuberance. But, they should be cautious, the Giants exposed some serious weaknesses in their game. Long term, I’m not sure their pitching wlil hold up, but we’ll know in a few weeks. I’m drawn between the Indians and Cubs myself. I’m a little puzzled at my self at having zero interest in any of their players at an individual level. Maybe that’s because of their display of poor sportsmanship, or whatever one calls. I do know, I didn’t fall asleep last night until 3.
I took note that Rizzo had little reaction to Ross’s home run. I have to think Papa Maddon had a chat.
There is a guy at the Tower (that’s what we call HQ in the Willis) that is 62 years old, and has had Cubs season tickets for over 30 years. He’s had a hip replacement, sounds like he slayed copious amounts of Camel unfiltered and shots of Cutty Sark, and has a tough time making it up the steep walkways in Wrigley to get to his seats.
For him, I’m hoping the Cubs do it.
As for the Cubs: though the 103 wins are a mirage (19 games against the Brewers and Reds help that), they are as solid as any team left.
I can bark about Baez and his immaturity, but he is a player. Incredible. The core is no more solid than ours, but having better years, and we have no equivalent to Bryant. Rizzo, Zobrist, Bryant, Baez, Russell, Fowler: solid. The bench? Solid. 4 good starters, and a much better pen than us.
Do I like their “act”? Not all the time, but they earned the right. Do I like the fans? Some. Every team has foolish fans.
The Cubs haven’t won in 108 years. In 2010, when the Giants won, it was the lifting of a weight I had carried for my whole life, and had no idea how much longer I would be carrying it. When it lifted, as melodramatic as it may sound, my outlook changed. I love baseball. I love it. Through the 52 years of teasing, I…we were rewarded. So, I can hate on their fans. I can hate on their attitude. i can hate on the national media love affair…but there are folks just like us that stayed in love with this sport through their entire lifetime just hoping that a day would come….
For them, I hope that day is this year.
I guess to act like they’ve been there, they do have to get there first. If the Cubs win, I wonder if they’ll burn Chicago down. Part of me would like to see that incessant whining in Chicago come to an end at the very least. The problem the Cubs have had until Epstein arrived is that they were run by idiots, not stray goats.
In 2010, I didn’t watch the games as closely as I do now. Honestly I was so hurt and scared of losing, then, especially as we got closer to the World Series, that I couldn’t get too invested. After they won, I became a fanatic again. And after they won in 2014, which I thought I was just a bonus, I told myself I’d never get worked up again.
Well I got worked up yesterday. My wife had to give me talking to this morning when I was moping around. I just can’t help it. They go my hopes up everytime I was ready to let go.
But I’d like to think I have a little more perspective now and having gotten a chance to celebrate not once, not twice, but three times, it’s OK for someone else like a Cubs fan to feel that joy this year.
I only really care to the extent it affects the Giants. The Cubs should roll, but what if the Dodgers win it? That would cause a renewed sense of urgency in SF, no? The PR machine is already diverting blame from last night’s implosion, and when the Cubs win the pain will soon be diffused, and management might make a decent effort at plugging holes.
But what if the Dodgers are WS Champs? Now the need to improve and sense of urgency would burn hot all off season. Plus, the rivalry would be intense as hell next year.
I know such a suggestion is blasphemy, but it would make for a fun 2017.
Michigan. I won’t watch another complete baseball game until April.
Well, I’ll give you that, Michigan is going to be a forced march to a National Championship, if Harbaugh has his way. I may drop in on a few of those games myself, at least for a quarter or two.
Elimination games will get my attention with any pair up.
Maybe the Nationals since they’re local and don’t bother me as much; Indians if LA knocks them out.
If it’s Cubs / Dodgers in the NLCS, I’ll root for a never-ending 1-1 tie.
OK, so the Giants need some new parts for next year, like LF and Closer. The SP is set in stone, at least the first four.
But I do think they should show Bum a little love. How about tearing up his current 3 year 35 mil deal, and giving him a 5/100, paid at 20 per, with a player opt out after three years.
In 2021 he can bounce if someone offers him crazy money, or he can stay at market rate (probable home town discount). Or maybe he wants to pitch near home. Who knows. Worst case you get a decade of Bum for 90 mil. This would show much good will, while limiting liability. The other option is giving him an extension at market rate, but that would mean taking on liability. Most of all, you have a happy Bum leading a great rotation next year.
He is a stand up guy that would keep his mouth shut and pitch his heart out if you keep the status quo. But if anyone ever deserved a contract redo, it’s him.
Reward the Bum! Reward a closer for choosing SF! And then scrape together some change for a professional to hold place in LF – or bite bullet and swing a deal with top prospects for an impact OF.
With the Giants Starting Staff…and team + park + etc…I would think this would be a desirable destination for a closer. Melancon lead the league in saves with the Giants.
We can’t let Washington win it all – then they will certainly fork over to keep him. I think otherwise, the Giants can outbid them as they should be able to top them payroll wise.
About that starting staff – it’s going to be among the best in MLB next year, with guys going deep into games and preserving and enhancing the bullpen as a whole.
Because that’s bad business. They already control Bumgarner through 2019. Giving him an opt out after three years amounts to giving him free money and getting nothing back in return. More guaranteed money should go along with more years of control.
This may be heresy, but by some indicators, Bumgarner may be on a decline. It’s a question of how to interpret what’s happening to him, and has the relentless scouting he gets uncovered flaws in his game. It’ll be an interesting off season.
I agree, which is why the more business savvy approach is to wait and see. It’s tough because you want to reward him but not flood him with guaranteed money if all those innings have started to slow him down at all. He’s 27, how dominant will he be when he’s 31-32? I want him to be rewarded but am terrified about the potential repercussions for doing so too soon.
The dilemma of modern, FA baseball. I’d belabor looking at his rolling average plot over his career, but others interested can find Fangraphs if they choose.
Cain and Timmy were both done by 31….
Jus’ Sayin’
GreekGiant,
Thanks for setting up this site. I appreciate your efforts in keeping this community going. Listening to all on here helps me process this loss. I think the real problem is my expectations were too high this season. The Giants were a flawed team as all are, and could not overcome there greatest weakness.
To all the rest of you thanks for posting on here your thoughts. I’ve not always agreed but I have thought about what you write.
Time to head out and enjoy the off season. I will check in to see whats happening from time to time and see who won the “MyGuy” contest. I think Lefty. Enjoy.
I think you have the lead with my rough math on MyGuy™.
You put Dylan Davis on the map this year and some of us will follow after him next year.
Haak, Thanks for doing all of this. I know its a large amount of effort. I will check in from time to time to see if you posted any results.
I wonder if Nunez can play LF….Conor really impressed me. It may carry over.
Then again, an athletic LF that can play defense and hit for some power would be key, and having Conor and Nunez would add depth at 3B.
I think so, Joe. I also think Belt can play LF too. Conor/Nunez platoon at 3B ain’t the worst of all worlds, ain’t the best of all worlds either, Eddie.
Or the best of both worlds, Savvie.
Ooops, just call me Sammy. Time to head down to Cabo Wabo…
Save me a seat, Savvie Hagar.
When they traded for him, the intent (so they say) was to rotate him at 3B/SS/2B…so position players stay fresh. I wonder if they would re-sign Gillaspie and go ahead and use Nunez that way.
Who can say with what we saw this past year? Lol
Free Agent Closers: Chapman, Melancon, Jansen
Free Agent OFers (LF or RF…if Hunter goes to LF): Encarnacion, Desmond (played CF), Trumbo (40 HRs, but…), Bautista, Sanders (Tor), Moss, and Reddick. Cespedes isn’t happening, if they want a closer.
Darkhorse…Matt Holiday. St. Louis already said they aren’t re-signing him and Giants could give him a short-term deal. Adds pop, he plays LF, and you could replace him late in games if necessary.
Desmond and Melancon would be welcomed additions. Desmond playing LF should substantially improve both the offense, speed and OF defense. But they’ll have to overpay to get Desmond because of the offensive hit he’ll take by signing to play at Yellowstone.
And the generic version Ben Zobrist versatility.
His offensive production may really only be a tick above average – like 5-10% above.
The overall package though is enticing with the speed and defense. And compare to Pagan he would be a substantial upgrade. But yes, I agree, a 104 OPS+ does not scream elite hitter. So maybe they can land him at a reasonable price?
If Span required a 3-30 mil commitment, I imagine Desmond can fetch 4/40-50
If they can get Desmond for 4/40 or even 4/50 I would fly to his agent’s office the second FAs are allowed to sign. I think his youth, speed and versatility land him more than that. But I hope you’re right.
So maybe 60? I had the feeling last winter that pitchers were getting paid through the teeth and that positional players were getting the relative shaft. We’ll see how the market shakes this winter.
Ya but it’s such a weak market for position players. EE is a DH, don’t see how an NL team can sign him. Bautista is old and on the decline defensively. Just feels like the options for the NL are limited.
The real options are/should be the farm system.
Amen. Ideal for sure. But often a gamble to roll with the kids when each additional “win” means so much.
They have to grow up.
For a reasonable price I wouldn’t mind him, but considering he turned down the Nats’ extension offer to seek bigger bucks…I dunno. And yeah, I wouldn’t break the bank for 104 OPS+
I don’t think Encarnacion can play OF anymore, but either he or Joey Bats would far and away be my choice. If they could afford either.
Giants make money. It there if they want to spend it
Holiday is dirty … no thank you
One other name to throw out there: Carlos Gomez. Some supposed attitude issues, recent down years but read that he may be willing to do a short term “rebuild value” type of contract. Maybe a plan C
OMG – if could only find a spot for Encarnacion. Interesting dark horse though. Hmmmm.
Ew, gross.
Matt Holiday seems like a real possibility. But the outfield situation will sort itself out next season since Blacno and Pagan come off the books and we have outfield prospects on the verge of promotion (Mac, Parker, Duggar, Slater). Holliday and another solid bat off the bench should take care of the needs on offense. To me, the offensive woes were mostly due to fatigue and the grind of the regular season. The way the team responded to the 0-2 deficit against the Cubs confirmed that for me.
As for the closers, Chapman or Jansen would be nice but aside from the team’s needs, they don’t seem like the right fit in the Giants’ clubhouse nor do I think they would want to be here. Melancon seems like the best bet for the Giants to sign but the demand for top closers is going to huge this offseason considering how many teams will be in need of closers (e.g. Nationals, Dodgers, Cubs, Pirates, Twins, Braves, etc.). To me, Jansen is a lock to return to the Dodgers unless the Nationals drop them in the first round again. Melancon is probably going to leave Washington but he would surely entertain the thought of returning to PNC. Chapman is a big question mark because I feel that he would go to whichever team throws him the big bucks.
Instead of looking to strike a deal with one of the premium closers right away, I think it would be in the Giants’ best interest to add more depth to the bullpen with solid veterans like Daniel Hudson, Joaquin Benoit, Drew Storen.
Everyone knows the Giants’ needs and targets this offseason. Other teams would gladly drive up the price of these closers. No doubt the Giants are going to have to spend big bucks, but they have to be smart about the entire situation and make sure to improve the bullpen as a whole and not just focus on the back end.
Chapman’s an interesting issue. I’m not sure he could stand the innings load he would get on a Giants staff.
I don’t think he fits…. but Cueto should know…. and I didn’t think Johnny would fit as well as he did.
He fell apart physically when the Reds, at his insistence, tried to craft him into a starter.
I do like Daniel Hudson – good buy low option. Others include Joe Smith and Brad Ziegler.
As for OFs in system, Austin Slater next in line after Mac/Park, followed by Cole, then Duggar, then the younguns that need plenty more development.
Melancon isn’t going back to the Pirates. They don’t spend that way. Giants need to swoop in on him, before Chapman makes any decision. He would surely be the Cubs Plan B, but if he was already the Giants Plan A.
If the Giants go with Mac or Parker in LF…they’re wishing on a star. That said, they tend to do that (hoping someone in-house comes around). Maybe Holliday could teach Mac a thing or two. Parker can go in a package somewhere.
Matt Holiday. No way.
Totally agree, no F’ing way. People think Pagan’s D was bad, just wait until that statue roams LF at AT&T.
I said that i was going to take a break, but I just had to see some comments this morning.I think a lot of the comments are over the top but when you live through a real life Zombie Apocalypse ,who’s to expect a thoughtful essay about the horror?
Anyway, this was only the worst night in the history of the franchise, but look-, get over it 😉
You know what’s funny about it. We’ve all watched it happen 23 times before and we all knew it was coming but couldn’t stop it. I just started laughing when Lopez came in. It was like Nam flashbacks.
“A real life Zombie Apocalypse.”
“It was a dark and stormy night…”
Now you’re getting the hang of it.You know what they say when it’s 4th and 110- PUNT!!
I no longer wear the cone of shame.
I thought you just deflated the ball?
I think the deflation has already occurred.
Have to get over it, it will take time, I hate myself for letting it affect me so much, I have people that need me to take care of them , and I am a useless Zombie right now, have 1PM meeting with sons social worker, need to get act together now !
Hang in there, PJ. I feel the same way.
Good luck, and hug your son.
Does this top Game 6 in 2002? Not so sure. In 2002 win that game and the team wins the World Series. While blowing it all in the 9th made this more unbelievable, it still would have taken 9 more wins, including a Game 5 in Chicago, to win it all. Let’s just say both were horror shows.
I was “over exaggerating” but you got my drift.
It wasn’t the World Series. That’s worse.
That one was worse. But as soon as Bochy pulled Moore. I thought about Dusty……
Last night I was so numb. Today I have decided that baseball season is over. I will not watch any more. Tomorrow that might change;)
I’m still numb and in shock. Even with the horror show that was the 2016 Giants bullpen I still cannot believe they blew a 3-run 9th inning lead at home. The win probability entering the 9th was I believe over 99%. Looking back on it I almost wish Lopez would’ve just given up a 2-run HR to Rizzo. Then Lopez is out and whether it’s Romo or anyone else, they get a clean 9th with a 1-run lead. I would have been ok with just getting beat, such as with Game 2. But to implode in historic fashion when pushing the best team in baseball to the brink makes the numbness linger for much longer.
Oh I am still numb.
What makes me cringe is after the game Maddon admitted they did not want to face Cueto and was happy Moore was out. When the TV cameras (almost always) showed the Cubs players/GM in the 8th they looked like losers(the literal meaning). They knew if the Giants won, they would have had an uphill battle in Chicago. Then you add the whole Goat thing, and the fans would have come to park with fatalistic energy, which would have spilled over to the players. I am convinced we would have won game 5. Beyond that who knows.
Yep. That’s the part that makes it so painful. Game 5 was a lock until the bullpen led by Bochy’s musical chairs made postseason history. I just wanted to see 108 years of pressure on the shoulders of the Cubs in Wrigley with the Giants co-ace going. If they lost Game 5 and were just beat, so be it. But to give away the series like that makes it so, so much harder to process.
Agreed. And if we had lost in a tight game or blow out – so be it. But to lose like that 5-2 in the 9th is just awful.
Of course he was happy Moore was out. He’s not stupid.
Game 6 in 2002 was worse but this is second..
Agreed. And Game 6 was done over the course of the 7th and 8th innings. Plus, technically, there was a Game 7. This was an elimination game. This is a closer second to Game 6 than it should be given it was a [home] elimination game and made [dubious] postseason history.
The Cubs were dead! We had them! Now I have to watch that Old Lady with puppet for for 2 more weeks.
You can’t spell Cubs without BS
Now I have to root for the Nats to win, as I don’t think the Kershaws can beat the Cubs, and I’d really like to see someone take down that weasel, Baez.
Greek … your comments are terrific. No, Bochy did not make the physical mistakes, but his moves made them more likely to happen. Indeed, Bochy often invited defeat or refused to take action to increase the chances of victory, likely costing the team a division title, forcing a wild card game, and costing the Giants their ace in this series. For all his apparent strengths off the field, he has a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the probabilities of baseball, and he is extremely inflexible. Even as it applies to his favorite hobby of changing pitchers, he clearly overestimates the benefits of his preferred matchups … down the stretch he routinely used the 13th and 14th guy in the pen in key situations. He didn’t walk anyone, no … he just brought in a guy who had walked or hit 5 batters in his last 8 innings and had one of his worst years ever in terms of control.
Never been a Bochy fan or a hater. Maybe he’s a Hall of Famer … so what? Lasorda is in the Hall of Fame and he is a profane, dishonet buffoon who embarrassed the game for decades. Bochy is a competent manager who is often not a good fit for a team without the skills he insists on playing to.
So who is the Giants 3B next year, Gillaspie or Nunez?
Nunez
IMO, if they decide to sustain winning and go after bullpen help, I don’t think Nunez may be a casualty of their salary model. Radical as it sounds, I’d rather they consider losing for a2-3 year period and refilling to farm system, but all that money spent on starting pitching might foreclose on that. What a set of dilemmas.
Nunez. Gillaspie is a nice bench bat. Gillaspie had an unbelievable postseason. A 162 game marathon is a different beast.
Gillaspie and make Nunez Zobrist-like.
Both!
and maybe with some pico de Arroyo sprinkled in late!
Stop bashing Belt.
i’m going out on a limb here-
Nunez, Gillaspie,KT, EA, Pagan, or other.
“Pagan.”
“Oh, the humanity.”
One more and you have a die to throw, instead of a con to flip. 😉
Maybe I should play the “Carmot Card” and go with Belt,.
That could become a prayer of sorts…’May you go with Belt’.
I haven’t read any comments since the unthinkable happened. Is everyone okay? As for me, this is going to take a while.
I hear ya, brother Moooooooose. I’m going away for a few days to visit friends in Bloomsburg, where I used to play gigs once a month. The leaves changing and riding the back roads will take away the sting.
I’m listening to a Slaid Cleaves marathon right now. Pretty repression stuff. Got some blues on tap this afternoon.
Kieth Jarrett at The Blue Note seems to fit the bill for me today. Thank you Pandora.
Rush “Roll the Bones” on vinyl for me, CC.
Blues is the obvious choice, pal. Lol
My better half is a Cubs fan. My tribulations will continue for a while. These are indeed the times that try men’s souls.
I have been asking TwoHole for reasons to root for the cubs but not seen him respond yet. Do you have any reasons around your house then? I heard Hendricks “is a good story” and I will follow up on that lead but otherwise I don’t like any of these guys right now.
Cubs have been her team for going on 40 years. Habit, and the sisterhood of armored expectations. I was a Cubs fan for 15 years myself. It taught me finally to love The Game more than any team. However, that is not a widely held POV. As I’ve commented before, it always amazed me how little Cubs fans as a group actually know about baseball.
You gave me a reason: ChannelClementine would be a happy woman.
I will try to build on that.
Chicago residents in general know little about what they support … they do what the machine tells them to do
Not on the North Side, LOL.
I don’t think I could even root for them against the Dodgers.
We are alive. We are more than OK!
NO. I am not ok.
Got my tears out last night, now I feel functioning as long as I don’t think about that wretched last inning. I’m shoving the lingering pain into somewhere dark deep and unreachable. Until it resurfaces at inappropriate times, as it goes.
Now I guess I have to focus on ‘real life’ until I find something else to look forward to. Maybe I’ll even give dating a try again. Juuuust kidding.
Brutal gut punch loss that we’ve seen happen all season. The coulda, woulda, shoulda’s are endless, aggravating and agonizing. So be it. That’s baseball, to quote The Marty. Time to read Paul Giamatti’s dad’s poem again.
First we get last night…then we get the Pope. Some TWG’s are going to explode.
You mean The Chef?
I see no news on Francis.
You will….
As in, if the Giants lose like this then the foundations of Modern Civilization are shaken? I like that image even if Francis has a better season than the Giants.
http://jokideo.com/wp-content/uploads/meme/2014/05/Boy-I-say-boy—cartoon-meme.jpg
Brisbee’s take on the should he or shouldn’t he have left Moore in:
“There are a lot of Bruce Bochy criticisms out there. Some of them are valid. Some of them are questionable. I’m here to judge them. I have found what Bochy really should have done, and it ranks #1 on the list, but no skipping ahead.
Leave Matt Moore in
The worst of all arguments. Moore had thrown 120 pitches. The Giants are counting on him next season and the season after. He’s a Tommy John survivor. More importantly, if this plan works, and if the Giants win Game 5, they would have needed Moore for the NLCS and potentially the World Series.
If Bochy had allowed Moore to throw 140 pitches and the Giants advanced, I guarantee you that a lot of the people who complained about Moore being taken out would have yelled just as loud if he allowed seven runs in two innings in his next start.
Ugh, this is because BOCHY ran him INTO THE GROUND. Anyone could have protected that three-run lead. What a MORON.
Not all complainers would have said that. Not all complainers. Enough, though.
If you’re contemplating grinding your starting pitcher into dust during the NLDS because you don’t trust your bullpen to hold a three-run lead, you probably shouldn’t bother grinding your starting pitcher into dust, because the bullpen will fail you plenty in the next two rounds. It’s the Matt Moore Paradox!
It was something of a bold move to use Moore in the eighth, you know. Bochy pushed his starters harder than any manager in baseball this year. He was right to back off on this one.
Final judgment of criticism: Not valid.”
Really lost respect for Grant for this. Moore threw 133 pitches in the near no-hitter, he can pitch that many for himself but not for the team? Seriously? I can only guess that Grant forgot about the near no-hitter.
Moore would have had SIX DAYS off before his next start in the NLCS. Did Grant bother to count/
Who cares what fans would have said? Who cares what other managers do? They aren’t in the same situation.
I didn’t think Grant could say something that dumb, I really didn’t.
I do not think it is dumb, just a different opinion than you, others or I have.
Moore should have gone in the 9th, then Smith if necessary. That is what I believe. In the end it is ovah. A bitter end no doubt. I am very curious to see who the Giants will get.
I thought that I was taking this quite well until Merna told me to stay away from sharp knives for a week or two.
Mine, a Cubs fan, handed me one and giggled…but she quickly seized it back upon watching caress the sharp edge last evening.
Now that made me laugh. Thank you.
Now the question becomes.
How do you structure the roster going into next year so Bochy can’t ruin it
We know the rotation
Bum
Cueto
Moore
Marge
Blach/Cain
We know these parts of bullpen
Ray Black
Okert
Kontos
Smith
Law
Suarez
Gearrin
Cain/Blach
Strickland
We know the most of Lineup
Span CF
Belt 1B
Posey C
Pence RF
Crawford SS
Panik 2B
Nunez 3B
We know some of the bench
Gorkys
Brown
Gillespie
What we don’t know, and questions Bobby has to guide Bruce to answer:
Who is going to close? There are options and plenty of arms talent and stuff out in the pen, but Bochy struggled to find a guy he would trust and give a Brian Wilson length rope to. He gave Wilson that rope in 2009 because he had no choice. If you bring no-one in, can he find THE Guy among this group OR has the mix and match mess already damaged the psyches of these talented young arms to ruin them all and you need to go shopping for a veteran anchor the skipper is going to trust (Chapman, Melancon, Jensen). I personally think they talent is there. I wouldn’t spend money in the pen or bring back any of the security blankets (Romo, Casilla, Lopez) Bochy seemed to grab in 2016 when he got nervous. Make him sort it out. There is more than enough there. I am personally really, really, enamored with trying out Matt Cain in the role if he is willing. He always seemed to look good his first two or three innings before he went all over the place and it would be a useful way to find a way for the veteran to contribute and give Bochy a veteran leader and security blanket out there with the remenants of the ‘Core 4’ departing. It needs to be talked about now, and have him start prepping for 2017 that way.
Who is going to start in LF?
Angel Pagan’s time as a Giant appears over, or does it? It should be. Angel is a useful player and would make a great fourth for a playoff contender but I would like an upgrade in LF. If Bobby brings back Angel or Gregor, even at a discount they will start over Mac and Parker in Bochywood. Heck, he may even start Gorkys over the kids, which may make sense to move Span to LF if that was the case. Wonder how that would go. Do you trust that Gorkys is Gregor 2.0? Do you trust the kids and force Bochy to find roles for Parker and Mac? Or do you go shopping? Cespedes is shiny and expensive and sure to decline as his contract goes up. Can Edwin play LF?, Will Joey Bats accept the QO from Toronto? Ian Desmond was an All star. There are options if you want to spend top of the market here. I don’t think those types of moves are what we have in store. A older retread? Holliday, and Beltran can still hit……if you want to Burrell LF. I don’t think that’s an answer. Either way Pence is getting Fra-Geel-eh and Spans track record isn’t exactly Mr. Durable. You need two options here. The problem is if you get someone like Jay, or bring back Gregor, (Both are great 4th choices for playoff teams) hoping that Mac or Parker can earn enough trust to win the spot and you don’t know Bochy. Either one of those two guys starts in 2017 unless they go Casey McGehee. So is a Mac/Parker platoon the solution?
Who starts at 3rd base?
If Gillespie has truly turned a corner, this might make an interesting infield competition next year with 5 true starters and Christian Arroyo waiting in the wings. If Joe hits .250, Connor or Nunez at the 2B? Does Nunez Get time in Left Field even? I think Bochy showed in his playoff selections the other backup IF will be KT. EA will try to get through waivers and kept for depth.
Simple. Get a LF, Pick a closer, watch an interesting IF battle. Goto the World Series.
You have to have enough power so that you don’t need to play more opportunistically. They expected to have that this year. When they didn’t, they slept for months until the pitching rebounded. Bochy manages they way he manages. You would have to fire him to get the roster down to a more reasonable 11 pitchers and enough bench players to effect the outcome of the occasional game.
Get a closer (32 blown saves), get a LFer, then go to WS.
They only have money for 1….
I would rather have Desmond or Holliday for LF than over pay for Chapman. YMMV…..
Chapman not coming here. Not a PC thing to do.
Closer: don’t spend big bucks, go internally, maybe Law should get the first shot. I agree the talent is there. Although of the 3 big names I’d prefer Jansen.
LF: offense is weak as it is, not sure if I want to go Mac anymore. Spend the big bucks for Cespedes. They need a legit 3/4 hitter, a presence in the lineup.
3B: Nunez gets the first shot, but if Gillaspie keeps hitting into next year and Nunez isn’t, there’s your answer. Given Nunez’s speed and better defense I hope it’s him though. Full Throttle 2.0
How to stop Bochy from ruining the roster: Don’t sign anyone over 31 for Bochy to shower his stubborn vet love. Make him think creatively and use the roster. And especially don’t re-sign any of the vets whose contracts are up (Peavy, Lopez, Casilla, Romo)
After this season they have to overpay for a proven shut down 9th inning option. The internal options *may* be there but cannot run the risk of being exposed again if they’re not. I am generally a staunch advocate of never overpaying for closers. This year has changed my philosophy, at least with respect to the Giants and Bochy’s managerial style. Go overpay for Melancon or Jansen. I’d prefer Melancon. LF I go inquire about Desmond. If he’s too expensive or won’t come here then led the kids roll I guess.
Yep…no wishing upon a star about an internal closer solution. If someone rises to that level, you can trade the FA or the internal solution…but don’t go into 2017 without a legit closer.
correct on all counts. Cannot risk failure with “an internal option” after we already tried it.
Hmm, yeah we definitely don’t want to see a repeat of this year. Just like they need a presence in the lineup, they also need a presence in the bullpen too and settle everyone down.
Sign Melancon. The rest of the bullpen will fall into place. And as far as I know he is not on probation.
Strickland’s numbers have been solid in the regular season but I get uncomfortable when i watch him in big spots. He doesn’t have the edge and competitive intelligence that other good relivers we have had in the past had. Seems like he makes his pitches and hopes things work out well instead of understanding that certain hitters have tendencies and require a different approach. Maybe that can come with experience or maybe Posey needs to help him too…or maybe he can just be a solid 7th inning guy
We definetely need to get a closer…I don’t think two would even be excessive.. Jansen and Melancon? I like Gearrin, Law, and Okert should be a perfectly fine Loogy. Smith closed the year out well. Dropping Romo and Casilla will help a lot
I agree that the talent is there in the bullpen. The problem is that after this year I’m very skeptical that Bochy will be able to find it and use it. He’s got to be open to the possibility that Smith is best suited to be the closer, and I don’t think that he is, because Smith is a lefty or for some other non-reason. So for this reason I think they need to add some generic lefty free agent so that there’ll be some other lefty non-closer besides Okert.
Getting someone to help the collapsing outfield is the top priority.
If I am GM, I seriously consider trading Pence. He is getting old, injury-prone and he came up very small this postseason. He appears to be on the downward slope of his career. I also consider trading Blach while his value is at its peak. The Giants need bats and younger arms in the pen. There may be some interesting options with some bold moves. I would also consider trading Span and going with a complete overhaul and youth movement in the outfield.
There is no market for Span, at least in terms of anything more than a C-level prospect in which the Giants would have to eat a lot of his salary. Not sure what the market is for Pence. He’s their heart and soul and I think the players would be very upset if Pence were traded. And I think he’ll turn 34 next year and is making $18M/year. He wouldn’t net much in a trade. Sign a 9th inning stalwart to stabilize the pen and even possibly another 7th/8th inning RP. Way better to have “too many” options than to ever witness again what transpired last night. The one exception to the youth movement in the OF I’d be ok with is Desmond on a reasonable contract.
Agree, Span won’t net much and trading Pence now would be selling low considering his past couple years and he won’t net as much as he normally would either. Plus they already have a hole in LF without too many good internal options, why create a second hole.
Trading Blach while his value is high is interesting though. Suarez could be a 5th starter and Beede is getting closer. I think he’d need to show a bit more though in order to fetch a good return considering only 2 MLB starts, a few relief appearances, and non-blue chip prospect status.
All depends on how others value Blach. Do they look at him a replaceable 5th SP or a potential rotation stalwart. If it’s the latter then definitely explore his market and see if Beede is ready. If it’s the former, he looks like he might have significant value to the Giants so hold onto him.
Blach definitely perceived similar to how the Giants perceive him – 5th starter/swing man type. Not to say he couldn’t execute his butt off and win 15 games with a 3.5 ERA, just that most teams wouldn’t bet on that probability.
Exactly, which is why he’s more valuable to keep around. And he’s making near the major league minimum too.
And he’s a lefty and lefties seem a way to beat the Dodgers.
Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but another year between his hip surgery and his play might in his favor.
Possibly. He showed signs of life a bit in the postseason. It can’t get a whole lot worse for him offensively…I wouldn’t think.
The only way you trade Blach is if you get a Wade Miller…… Left hand pitching is at a premium and the next Kirk Rueter is there for the ask. I do think it makes sense to trade him and it could be likely given Cain’s contract and the other prospects in the system but you should get premium price for him.
Blach won’t touch Wade Miller. Beede and Arroyo would be of more interest to Royals. Contact lefties don’t fetch too much in trade. Power righties, more.
You’re suggesting trading people we’ll get little or nothing for.
Giants definitely need Pence to come up bigger next year – and stay on the freaking field. But to trade him opens additional OF hole.
I’d keep Blach and consider using Beede as a trade chip.
Maybe that trade for Michael Taylor involves moving Span back to DC – he certainly did a nice job of boosting his “stock” at season’s end.
I love Blach–just terrific makeup–but I really believe Beede is going to be a special pitcher who will be a #2-3 in a rotation. With Moore and Bum in the fold for at least another three years and both only 27, they could spare Blach at some point. And if he does well and becomes a great trade chip, even better.
But I don’t think next year is that point. The rotation will clearly be the foundation of the 2017 team, just as it was from 2009-12. Blach should be the fifth starter, and Beede’s probably not ready for the big leagues yet. There are also guys like Andrew Suarez (another lefty) and Coonrod who could come along and be ready to be a fifth starter by 2018. But a year from now, or even next July, they could possibly spare one of those young starters, even if Cueto leaves.
I think the Giants have to be hoping for the development of Beede to the point where they are not desperate to re-sign Cueto. I also think trading for Moore was partly an insurance policy against Cueto leaving after next year. One thing that will hurt Cueto is that Arietta, Darvish and possibly Tanaka will be FA SPs, which might diminish his market a bit. Hopefully Beede impresses to the point that they are comfortable letting Cueto go.
In his second-to-last start, he pitched a complete-game shutout, 2 H, 1 BB, 11 Ks. Maybe more impressive: he hit 98 twice in the ninth inning. This year he seemed to put the whole package together–four pitches, swing-and-miss offspeed stuff, kept something in the tank for later innings, good command, great poise (like Blach that way, actually). I watched his starts on MiLB.TV every time I could.
A day or two after that start I heard Bobby Evans talking about him on KNBR, and he brought up Cain, Lincecum, and Bumgarner as examples of how they wanted to bring up a young starter at the right time and in the right way. I liked hearing the GM put Beede’s name in a sentence with those other names.
that Beede appears to a special prospect (Top 100 – 50ish, B+ prospect) and a potential mid rotation starter makes him a valuable trade chip – the highest value trade chip the Giants have.
Food for thought. A Beede & Arroyo package with a couple others could bring an impact type player to SF via trade.
I respectfully disagree. Young pitching is at a premium nowadays and talent like Blach, although he only played for a month, is rare. He’s part of our future and it wouldn’t be an overstatement to say that he COULD be the heir apparent to Bumgarner. Cueto isn’t a sure bet to stick around with his player option after the second year. In that case, Cueto could become an interesting trade chip this upcoming trade deadline.
I’m not against the idea of trading away Pence but his stock is so low right now that we wouldn’t get a fair value for what he’s meant to this team. Plus, there’s no telling how it could affect the chemistry in the clubhouse when moving a clubhouse leader like Pence.
But yes, I do agree to some extent. After yet another disappearing act in the postseason and injury-ravaged season, even Pence’s spot on the team isn’t secure anymore.
sorry, but gonna have to slap an “overstatement” sticker on one of those sentences.
Ok, fair enough but I would like to keep him around for another season and see his numbers over a stretch of full season. The way he competed against Kershaw was one of the highlights of the season.
He’s earned himself many opportunities to start in SF.
Blach is going to get kicked to the curb just like Heston. He should beg for a trade.
There are all types of losses. Shut outs. We got our butts kicked. Close game but came up short. Umps screwed us. Tough bounce. Choked it. Blown save. Etc. But the worst type of loss with the potential for long term ramifications is the choke job wrapped in humiliation. Giants were humiliated last night. Like getting pissed on and you’re unable to stop it from happening. Humiliation is a horrible emotion with a wide range of consequences. I mean after all, look at my beloved Raiders and their 2002 Super Bowl loss to Tampa Bay. This year is the first year of any type of recovery. 14 years of futility and ineptness because the loss was so humiliating it couldn’t be overcome. That’s my worry. But the Giants aren’t the Raiders and are just a arm or two, a power bat and a base stealer away from being right back in it. We will have the best 5 man rotation in baseball with Blach at #5. Giants will have to figure out Cain and his contract, but he proved his best years were in the past. And Connor needs to be considered as a legit component. Gorkys has to be every day. Same with the power bat of Mac. Spring training can’t get here soon enough.
That is what was so frustrating about last night’s game. The team did us so proud with the way they played on Monday and for 8 on Tuesday. They played like we have seen so many times in the postseason. Peaking at the right time, unexpected contributions, etc… Its a tough one to take but they went out to the best team in the league and they battled hard. Frustrating series. Cubs deserve some credit for the 9th too
One hard hit ball in the 9th by the Cubs, the Giants were bad and a little unlucky too, the Giants gave them that game .
I would’ve accepted things much better if the Cubs just beat the Giants in a rout. The way things ended… really burns and saddens me.
Giants need to open AT&T for grieve counseling. Players coaches and personnel can sit at tables on the field and fans can wander around and get pictures and autographs and complain about whatever is on their mind. Sabian and Evans can reassure everyone we’ll be bigger and better next year. Free hot dogs and left over Gator Ade and raffles for pizza and sundaes. Maybe even give all the visitors a t shirt or a hat.
This blog is our communal grief counselor but I like your idea about opening up our park for a session.
Hey Greek, any chance you can get players, coaches, and FO to participate on this blog? 🙂
Best blog on the www.
It has the best subject matter
And, Buster Hugs for EVERYONE!!!!!
That sounds amazing. Perhaps they can include a water dunk tank too. Fans can donate money to Jr. Giants to have chances to throw baseballs at the target to sink members of the bullpen. I’d say Bochy should be included, but I’m afraid he’d have a heart attack after his 5th or so dunking.
Odd years are the new even years. Come spring though, there better be some changes in the bullpen to take away the bitter taste in my mouth.
In a few short months, pitchers and catchers will report in Scottsdale and the sun will start shining again.
Not watching anymore MLB tv or playoffs. Don’t need tv reminding of the Cubs greatness thanks to the Giants tumultuous implosion. TWG will be my only source for anything Giants, other than my contacts in SF.
I am right with you on that. and add radio too.
YUP TWG is where it is at!
Our future left fielder, Tim Tebow does it all, even console people when they are having a seizure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/sports/baseball/tim-tebow-fan-seizure-arizona-fall-league.html?module=WatchingPortal®ion=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=8&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F10%2F12%2Fsports%2Fbaseball%2Ftim-tebow-fan-seizure-arizona-fall-league.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&_r=0
Moore looked like he was getting stronger and sharper late in the game. Those are times you leave the pitcher alone.
Connor G was having the type of playoffs that usually get you the WS MVP. If we’d made it of course.
Bum Cueto Moore Smarge Blach. Best 5 man rotation in baseball. Memo to FO: leave it alone.
Damn shame.
Just like Bum in the Wild Card game. Bochy didn’t pull Bum with a three-run lead in the ninth in an elimination game. I get the pitch count and TJ concerns, but Moore was cruising those last two innings.
Bold Predictions for next year:
1) Giants will win the NL West
2) Bumgarner will win 20 games
3) Posey will top 20 HR’s
4) Our closer will have 40+ saves
5) Our starting rotation will lead the league in ERA.
Maybe, no, no, no, maybe.
Boom! Let’s get Belt >20 dingers as well. And get Panik back over .300.
Who will be the closer?
Hopefully Melancon
why would he leave Washington?
He’ll have more save opportunities with the Giants staff, than the Nationals. Their starting staff is either hurt or not as good as what the Giants have in 2017.
More $$$$$. Giants will simply have to beat whatever offer the Nats make to him.
Bingo.
Mr. Melancon Leaves Washington…(with Jimmy Key Stewart)
The scariest thing about what Greek said is that the Cubs are young and here to stay. Just like the old 49ers Cowboys rivalries, the Giants have to make changes to beat the Cubs. That should be their aim if they want to win championships. Pitchers that can shutdown the Cubs hitters (we already have those in our rotation!) and hitters that can hit the Cubs pitchers (we have a few of those).
But Cubs pitching isn’t terribly young.
Yep and Arietta’s free agency is coming after next year. I think that’s their potential weak link. Lackey is old, Lester is getting up there and who knows if what Hendricks is doing is sustainable. Arietta may walk, there will be a *lot* of teams bidding for him and he will be very expensive.
They have Carl Edwards, Jr. waiting in the wings to be a starter. I will have to look into their minor league prospects. Lackey still is solid. Lester is a risk factor. Arrieta may or may not sing elsewhere.
Is the plan to make Edwards a starter? He has a Lincecum-esque frame so he may not last long as a SP. Regardless, his stuff is electric.
They got nothin’. Lackey is practically a corpse.
Hardly, he had a very good season. He has one or two more years in him.
What are you talking about? The entire pitching staff other than Hendricks is going downhill.
If you think that their GM is going to rest on his laurels while the team back slides to mediocrity you are delusional. He has the $ and the players to solve any problem that arises.
That is true, but acquiring frontline SP is easier said than done, regardless of the resources. I think they’re going to let Arietta walk after next year and whoever signs him I think will be in a world of hurt because I see him burning out in the not too distant future. But, I agree with your general point, they have an astute GM who will do whatever it takes to ensure they have a championship caliber rotation.
Wow. Great text-tweet from Derek Law.
It must be!
LOL
Here it is,
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2ed53145fe1243808d6a53e6b68ef503443d5d95d6f1df7a70f8e768f9bf669c.png
TY – you and mom on good terms today 🙂
??
Yeah, although her mood must be better than mine! Saw her yesterday for some business stuff, not too much chat about the baseball. Our family is united for the coming NLCS!
Classy.
Great kid. Glad he is ours.
OMG – Santiago Casilla’s state of being is the current lead article on MLBtraderumors. He was very upset as Carl Steward wrote about. Obviously, he’s done in SF, but can you imagine the Dodgers signing him? I suppose I can.
And that’s why I’m glad he’s done here. Even after a shocking, heartbreaking loss, he makes it all about himself, just as he’s done all season long. I’m sure there were plenty of other players who felt pretty awful, too.
I do not care who he goes to, just go away from us. I have actually met him, he is very nice, but as a closer he is not very nice.
i disagree vix.. he’s very nice as a closer, just to the other team. he gives them walks, hits, whatever they need. he’s such a nice guy.
LOL – So damn true!
What was Romo’s attitude about last night?
From Alex’s piece:
“For us, we’re just more in shock that it happened, how it happened, the way it happened,” Romo said as he packed up at AT&T Park, possibly for the final time. “We went in with a pretty decent lead going into the ninth and it looked pretty good in our favor. It didn’t go our way. It was definitely a tough way to end a very trying season.
“A lot of ups, and a lot of downs, too. A tough way to go out.”
As Baggarly wrote a few weeks back – there was a loosely guarded opinion that some players were frustrated etc. with Bochy. Regardless – he looked like a complete fool
From Alex’s postgame last night:
“All season long, Bochy had operated with a quick hook, a situation relievers grumbled about behind closed doors.”
The culture of the bullpen was as much a problem as the actual pitchers. Bochy is responsible for the morale and it was bad I guess. Not surprising and quite frankly, Bochy was groping in a bad way for a solution and in the process lots of egos got bruised. You cannot expect players to excel in such a situation however. You cannot send a pitcher out there and yank him if he gives up one walk or one hit. It’s just ridiculous and I hope Bochy changes his matchup-obsessed approach.
Yup. Boch overplayed and over managed. I love Boch, HOF manager, but last night and during many moments of this season was just not his best. Yes yes yes, the players play – but a manager has to put them in the best position, imho last night he did not do that in the 9th
That does not surprise me one bit. More over – I think it was Smoltz who said – not knowing how many innings they are going to pitch puts much pressure and disorganization in the bullpen – or something to that effect.
Yes. Smoltz was right on in his analysis last night. He also said You can’t hide from your problems. They always catch up with you eventually.
Amen. Nothing more needs to be said. At least for the next 2 min. hehe
lol – his attitude hasn’t been too great this year. another potential Dodger, SMH.
He has nobodhy to blame but himself. He was a disaster this year. Here is what he should have said:
“I got demoted because I was too inconsistent., I know it. I deserved it. I will work hard to be better. I will be the best closer in baseball next year and you have not seen the last of me.”
“I had a little struggle. But everybody has had their bad moments. I think they forgot all the great moments I’ve had here. I’ve pitched a lot in the playoffs and done my job. I know I am a good pitcher.”
He still doesn’t get it. “A little struggle”? He was the worst closer in baseball this year.
He was the difference between winning the division and playing the Nationals and winning the second Wild Card…
So was Bochy. So were a lot of people … 5 games
Yep…which is why his behavior ticked me off so much. If he was so successful, Bochy wouldn’t being coming in to get him. Bye, bye..
Although he probably doesn’t throw a 2-strike fastball to a hack like Baez.
He had hard contact all year long.
The guy was very good up until August. He had 21 saves at the All Star game. He appeared in 42 games by the end of July with 24 saves and 5 blown saves. On August 13th he had 27 saves and 5 blown. The amount of 1 run games he came into was very large so unless he had a zero ERA and allowed zero hits there were bound to be some blown.
Why did he break down in mid August after 48 appearances for a closer? Age or injury ? he is 36
i will pay for LA to sign him…
The free agent market for OF help may not be able to help the Giants and Bobby Evans may have to kick some tires on the trade market. I’m not sure if I can imagine a more ideal trade candidate than Lorenzo Cain. There are rumors about the Royals needing to shed payroll and move in a “new direction”, but Cain is a difference maker on defense and can be with the bat and with his legs. Just one year left on his deal and coming off a somewhat injurious season – but just one year removed from .838 OPS with 16 HRs and 28 SB.
Wonder about the availability of Adam Jones as well, but he’s a notch down in my bookaroo.
I love that you love the brothers
“I need guys that can play!”
Coors Lite ad?
Since there is no more dissection we can do about last nights 9th inning (which really was a repeat of the other 31 bullpen dissections from this season) and we can’t really talk about who is going to be added until after the post season when players declare for free agency and options are exercised or declined, players released, trade rumors etc., I’m going to my happy place and binge watching 2010, 2012 and 2014 WS videos….
Just started with 2010 and already reminiscing. I remember back then my brothers and I saying with Timmy, Cain, Bum, Sanchez, Zito. Just get into the post season with these guys and let’s roll.
Jeez, watching this video and looking at all the players and fans back when we didn’t know what it was like to have that ring.
LOL – watching that play with Timmy in Game 1 of the World Series when he fielded a chopper and ran Michael Young back to 3rd without throwing the ball. Uribe and Renteria just standing at 3rd dumbfounded….
Then Timmy rolls a double play to limit the damage.
There’s a groundswell. May it be so….
http://www.bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery/public/media/ap/8d4b12b3f80c422c8bfce2d3587b9f3d.jpg?itok=tjfuYrlD
This is such a “Bonfire of the Vanities” post…you create the groundswell, report on said groundswell…voila! It’s a groundswell!!
But it sure is a swell groundswell, Papa! Hyuck hyuck!!
Sometimes it makes more sense to examine what a pitcher like Melancon added and emulate it, than buy the original. Melancon was not always a value asset.
Teach Strickland the cutter?
You may be on to something, Dr. Fermi.
You don’t guess, you analyze. Honestly, it’s above our paygrade.
I thought that was your kind of speculation- “teach him the changeup and he’ll be a dynamo”
It has nothing to do with analysis from our point of view. It’s a matter of the pitching committee seeing the potential to work with him on a cutter with him. Then, can he manage a consistent release? Can he generate good spin rate which translates to late break?
As far as I can tell, he’s destined for the fastball slider combo.
Cheers.
All changeups are not created equal, and all pitchers aren’t as hard headed as Strickland, apparently.
You really think they don’t already work with everyone in the organization, trying to do exactly that?
Who knows?
Our pay grade in the Giants organization is pretty low, so I sure hope so. In all honesty though if it were that simple to teach guys a cutter that turns them into dominant, elite level closers it would happen far more often. It ain’t that easy, and I think it’d be pretty tough to “analyze” whether Strickland can develop a cutter to jump to an elite closer. I think it’s much more trial and error than analysis. Because if the Giants could run a reliable analysis telling them Strickland or Law or whomever can develop a 94 mph cutter that turns them into a perennial 40+ save closer, they’d f#$%^&* do it.
Eff yeah they would.
The Giants can’t afford to take the gamble of standing pat and hoping the guys they have improve, or become more consistent. They need to add quality.
Melancon was built, not born. He was just desperate and therefore willing.
There are hundreds of players desperate to make the big time. Why hasn’t anyone thought of this before? You can anyone with a moderate level of talent and make them an All Star. So simple.
Who says easy, or moderate level of skill.
Isn’t that what I said? They put themselves in a position where they must add a closer, they cannot go with internal options.
Good luck with that.
It’s the Giants who you should be wishing good luck with that. It’s not my money. And I think we all wish them the absolute best of luck in doing so because none of us want to witness ever again what we witnessed last night.
Ha. I replied to the wrong comment twice.
Strickland was Footy’s choice. First you analyze Melancon, pre and post. Then you look for who, and how. Melancon added a pitch. One can either spend ones money buying him, or invest in trying to engineer him.
Cloning closers. I think you’ve got it.
Sorry. I replied to the wrong comment.
Just having some fun.
My point is Melancon is a unique case. Otherwise why wouldn’t everyone try to replicate Mariano Rivera? The Giants are not in a position where they can gamble with hoping they can engineer him. It takes a special type of pitcher to throw a dominant cutter. You’re right, Melancon was so bad in Boston they outright waived him. Then Pittsburgh turned him into a dominant closer. Melancon over the last several years has been a (not so) poor man’s Mariano Rivera. I think you are underestimating how difficult it would be to mold someone into that level of dominance.
IMO, adding a pitch to an existing repertoire is a lot simpler.
…or get Melancon and have him take Strickland under his wing.
any post that has “get Melancon” gets a thumbs up 🙂
Maybe they can emulate Melancon and then, while they’re at it, emulate Cespedes for LF. This emulation strategy could completely change baseball and ruin the free agent market.
That’s why nature gave Epstein brains.
I’d settle for emulating someone like Adam Duvall at this point.
Or Joe Biagini.
Joan Gregorio? They did hang on to him afterall. Kyle Crick?? Chris Stratton?
.230 ish / sub .300 OBP with 20ish HRs at ATT and defense (despite the metrics) probably average-ish?
Mac Williamson and Jarret Parker given a full season of reps?
Boom!
I love you for “getting it”
Now some tunes. Have a great afternoon. Keep up that rebellious spirit!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNfWC4Sgkcs
Looking back over the year, the funny thing that the first few months Bochy was all excited about complete games, saying things like ‘the best closer is a good starter’, and the result of that was on the one hand the team did well in the short run but on the other hand Bumgarner and Cueto got burned out and started giving up lots of homers in July and August, and the lesson he learned was to pull them sooner. But yesterday it became apparent that he learned it too well. Moore wasn’t was going to pitch again until next Tuesday, 6 days’ rest, but Bochy felt had no choice but to pull him after 120 pitches even though he’d retired 8 batters in a row and was cruising. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Bumgarner and Cueto both pitched well at the end. They weren’t burned out.
I beg to differ on Bumgarner, since August the team was 7-5 and he was 5-3. He had a 4.03 ERA 7 times he was less than 7 innings.
Meltdown by Committee.
for me, the first full day after being eliminated, is a very, very sad day. lot’s of cold, snow, and holidays that have lost their luster, till spring training. this helps..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Qy5ReN1Ns
Going where the climate suits my clothes…
Did I read somewhere that the city passed an ordinance that all business establishments must be open 24/7/365??!?!?!?!
Yeah, it said somewhere that no one in San Francisco can close……
Ba-dum-dum
I’m here all week, tip your servers.
Yes, it’s old material. I used it in September. Yes, it still works; sadly.
Pavs Re-Post http://www.csnbayarea.com/giants/depth-look-blown-save-ended-giants-2016-season
Something mentioned here that I don’t recall being discussed much but could be relevant:
“It would be interesting to know if he (Law) was truly affected at all by three innings of warming up. A night earlier, George Kontos admitted he was gassed by his fourth “dry hump” on the bullpen mound.”
With Bochy’s overmanaging of the bullpen and lots of appearances (not necessarily innings) for the relievers, I gotta think that these relievers were more gassed than one would normally think compared to the official number of pitches/innings thrown. Years ago I recall Krukow mentioning something like this too, that if a reliever gets up to throw but doesn’t actually get in the game, it’s not really a day off. Just another effect of Bochy not managing the pen right all year.
More so for me was how “hopped up” DLaw was from the dugout cheer leading brigade the night before. They call those HUMPS and nobody was worse at it than Sparky Anderson. His guys would throw complete games in the pen.
Having said that Gardy and Rags take all that away from Bochy while it is taking place.
Law hasn’t thrown strikes or had his stuff since he returned.
i don’t think that Bochy knew that Law’s greenies were still in effect.
I wouldn’t begin to speculate what Bochy knew, didn’t know, or cared about.
Remember that unfortunate Royal pitcher who had warmed up 3 times and finally came in the Giants blowout in game 5 (I think) of the 2014 World Series? Poor guy was gassed and threw batting practice. Could have been one of our pitchers this time around.
The Giants need a closer and they need a power bat in the lineup. Whether they do that internally, or via FA, I don’t care. I wouldn’t trade anyone who was the 25 man roster, however. The guys in the pen who aren’t up to it should be let go, they just have to rebuild. It isn’t going to have to take “years.”
Remember the reason why the Giants became competitive in 2009 and beyond. They got a guy to be their designated long lefty (Affeldt), and they home grew three starters (Cain, Timmy, Sanchez). And then they brought up a guy who could hit from the farm. And signed some odds and ends on spec (Huff, etc.) It only took them one year to win a title.
I’m sure the front office knows the deficits as well as we do. Remember that there are 14 other National League clubs trying to just get *into* the World Series and we have won the World Series *three times* in six years (7 seasons.) Seriously, we have nothing to complain about. We know exactly what we need to be more competitive, we have a very solid rotation (which is the foundation) just as in 2009, and, something we didn’t have in 2009, we have 3 level headed All Star and potential Gold Glove players in Posey, Crawford, and Belt who haven’t even hit their prime.
It’s too much to expect to win it all every year, or even every other year. But we can be competitive and make the playoffs every year, as we did, in fact, do this year. So just build on it.
I would add Panik to the potential GG players. He may not win it, but the kid can play a 2B.
You are absolutely right. So that makes _4_ solid position/lineup players and _4_ (at least that many) for a solid rotation. We just need a few pieces, and that will be good for the next several years.
I just forgot about Panik. And I won’t say “Pence” because as much as I like him he’s only got a few years left.
Wow. Baggarly did a post-mortem of what went wrong, and you’ll never guess what his conclusion was:
It’s the fans’ fault.
Specifically, the fans at the park on Sept. 17 when they booed Bochy and Casilla. Because of that, Baggs argues, Bochy felt constrained from using the guy that, to the bitter end, Bochy believed had the best stuff and the best chance to get the outs in the ninth inning.
I think Baggarly missed his calling. He should have been a fiction writer, not a journalist. Sci-if or fantasy would be his genres, I’d say.
He is also an admitted Cubs fan, so not that upset about the Giants blowing last nights game .
I think that his analysis is true. Imagine if Bochy had brougt in a rested Casilla last night– they would have booed him out of the place. I might not have booed and hoped for the best, but that would have been enough to make me question Bochy’s sanity, and as we well know, I beliebe that not only is Bochy a great manager but that he managed the ninth inning yesterday perfectly and couldnt catch a break up though and including a second Crawford error
How does that matter to a manager? If a manager ever made a decision on fans reaction, he should be fired immediately.
Bingo. And if Casilla is so fragile that he’d melt down from hearing boos he has no business in the closer role.
Here’s my analysis. Bochy just got locked in stubborn about Casilla. I couldn’t believe it when he let Casilla pitch to Jake Lamb AGAIN and when he let Casilla blow, what was it, four saves in less than two weeks in September?
I’m sure he knew the other relievers didn’t like how he was handling things. If the beat writers knew it, he did, too. Maybe he was even getting pushback from the pitching coaches or the front office. He certainly knew how the fans felt.
So yes, after Sept. 17, he didn’t use Casilla in a save situation again, but he never got over feeling that he was right and everyone else was wrong. Maybe there was a bit of that at least subconsciously operating last night.
You guys are starting to sound like the peanut gallery at a Trump rally.
So you wanted Casilia in, not what you posted the last 3 weeks, anybody but Casilia , What’s the point then, you got what you posted , now having 2nd thoughts about it ?
No I was adamantly opposed to Casilla coming in with anything less than a 20 run lead. Read what I said– if he did come in booing wouldnt help and I would hope for the best. I said brining in Casilla in the 9th would make me question Boch’s sanity– which is in tact because there was never a thought of using Casilla. My only question is why he was on the post season roster since he was unusable.
I don’t think so if he started the ninth with him. Now if Fowler doubles to lead off the inning all bets are off…..
If Bochy truly believed that Casilla was the best man for the job, my next question is: why?
Who?
That was part of it but he also laid a lot of it at Bochy’s feet with poor bullpen management. And also criticized the roster construction leaving off Gearrin and Okert. The point about Bochy not wanting to use Casilla at home is ridiculous, and if that’s true, then Bochy should just let the fans manage the game. Overall it was a pretty fair assessment. I don’t think it was pure fiction.
He’s got blog trauma disease.
He is a darned good writer – you’ve said so yourself 🙂
Paperback writer, writer…
He is a good writer. But “it’s the fans’ fault” is a ridiculous conclusion. Downright passive-aggressive, I’d say. I think he really, for his own reasons, hates the Giants and enjoys sticking it to the fans and twisting the knife.
A Cubs fan until the end.
Maybe a Dodger and Angel fan too. He did cut his teeth down there.
Might be bitter about the Romo/Pagan contingent costing him his Comcast Gig. Not that here is an axe to grind or anything.
If he hates the Giants, wouldn’t he be more likely to blame the Giants?
Sounds like Baggs has been to too many free baseball games.
According to baseball reference dot com, Santi has made $24.82 Million playing a game to entertain paying customers, who, among other things, boo players occasionally. Cry me a river.
Reflecting back on the season–other than, and despite the obvious abysmal bullpen performance– it really is quite amazing that the Giants were as competitive as they were and went as far as they did. The first half was an illision and as I told my friend Greek Giant at the time, was done with mirtows that covered up major flaws.
Posey and Pence did not have great years and compared to his first two seasons neither did Panik. Crawford stepped up but mostly before the break. There was absolutely no power threat, but the starting pitching– except for some hiccups was strong.
In the Cubs series the Cubs had 5 home runs (their pitchers had two) and the Giants had zero home runs. Over the entire season I think I am correct in saying that the Cubs bullpen only let up 2 runs (Chapman 2 runs on Monday) to the Giants while our bullpen– well you know that story.
Not only does this season show how hard it is to win a world series, but really how close we were. Im optimistic about next season with a bullpen revamp and a power bat our starting pitching– now including Blach it seems who has shown something in his few appearance–should make up a force to be reckoned with. More so than most of our competition, and certainly in the NL West.
The Giants scored four off the Cubs’ pen on Monday night and two last night. The bats were coming around.
i was trying to forget last night but thanks for the correction.
THAT is probably what bums me out the most. Game 5 in Chicago…the bats coming around…and it wouldn’t have surprised me if Bum closed in the 9th to get to the NLCS (probably his “throwing day”). Maddon would have been ridiculed…and the cockroaches would have gone on to win the WS.
I would imagine this series will catapult Panik, Gillaspie, and Blach into 2017.
Me too. I felt good about their Game 5 chances and following rounds. Ah, well.
I loved seeing Panik come around in this series. I’m a huge Joey Baseball fan and I believe in him. Hopefully this propels him back to where he was before hurting his back in 2015.
Actually for the possessed and the karma challenged it is truly and solely my fault the Giants lost their Mojo in the end. I have signed off and said good night to “Allen” for all of August and Sept and October but yesterday around 3pm California time, just before my bus arrives UP here – the laptops and desktops crashed at this facility and the sign off never happened. Then the Pizza arrived cold and my brothers beer was warm. His refrigerator went on the “Fritz”. Everything came back on the next day. Apparently it was sabotage and they caught the dude sneaking out the rear entrance wearing glasses. They ID’d the culprit as Mad Joseph and he had an old goat with him with a scruffily beard. The Goats name was Sut Cliff.
So I will be in detention for awhile. Water boarding and Your Fired have been mentioned on behalf of the Donald. JoBu is in rehab. He had gotten out of control so he entered the Betty Ford Clinic.
Jobu is in rehab only if the Cubs win it all…. I wasn’t that impressed. Our flawed club gave it to them. I think the Indians will destroy them if the get that far.
However, the narrative has been written. Whoever beats the Cubs will have to overcome the MLB narrative and the mystery crew in New York, who can’t find their glasses and forgot to check that camera angle that tells the truth. The 5 minute attempt to find something off in the late innings of game 3 is telling. Or else they are so incompetent, the first call went to voicemail because the crew had dozed off and it took 3 minutes to upload the feed.
Cleveland against Chicago in the World Series really has a classic feel to it. Chicago seems stronger than LA or Washington, plus it makes for a Great Lakes Series with either Toronto or Cleveland against the Cubs
and as an Ohio ex-pat I will be dleighted to watch that !
I imagine there’s a lot work with Jobu in Chicago-land as well. Bless their hearts, they are probably making many sacrifices – bless those lamb hearts too!
OMG – I can’t believe the season is really over. No more Giants baseball and not even a game on the docket today. While tackling some repetitive work, had to put on some Megadeth Pandora to get the frustration with that realization out. Randomly, I was treated to Seasons in the Abyss – hey Sincere and Mr. Sarcastic, consider this a Slayer love note, from yours truly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQpvqPuDJWI
I thought using the term “OMG” got people who are over 15-years-old moderated on principle.
OMFG!!
I was about 15 when I first heard this music from a cohort of fallen angels.
Get your axe out bro, and play along, if you can keep up.
I have been axing with Tab Benoit, Nice and Warm…sweet blues in b minor.
That – and some dude that posts backing tracks named Quist Jam.
Nice. You’re gonna get good. I better watch my back 😉
Carl’s Obit.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/12/casillas-goodbye-just-the-latest-sad-scene-from-a-very-cruel-game/
“Sadly, after that night, public opinion essentially forced Bochy’s hand not to use him again in an important situation, particularly at home. Erratic as he was in 2016, maybe Casilla could have protected that three-run lead in the ninth, drawing from the experience of 25 prior postseason appearances over 10 series in which he compiled an 0.92 ERA.
“We’ll never know. But Giants fans will have to live with the fact that they played a caustic role in creating that eternal what-if.”
Oh, please. I like Carl but this is nonsense to the highest degree, and a pretty ridiculous narrative both him and Baggs are pushing out there.
What’s Alex have to say? Steering clear of feather ruffling?
He had a post-mortem, too, but he didn’t point the finger at the fans. He did mention that there had been discontent all year long from the relievers about Bochy’s quick hook and lack of trust.
Wonder if Romo was a ringleader of the discontent. Casilla too. Mutiny on the Bounty!
You would certainly think so, considering Romo’s public displays of disrespect. I can’t see Javi Lopez acting that way.
Romo’s probably the one that figures he has nothing to lose.
can’t confuse “quick hook” with “lack of talent”.
see those that believe Bochy caused all of this because if his handling of the relievers are in some way still thinking there was nothing wrong with the overall talent in the pen, which is oh so wrong. 32 blown saves. That is a systematic collective failure by a large group of players. Funny how some fans can’t bear to realize the truth.
Some have already written on the blog how we look “in pretty good shape” with the pen, failing to comprehend the actual truth.
I agree they need to add 1-2 quality, proven relievers to what they have. But I’m in the middle on this. There was talent. Not enough, but some, and they shouldn’t have been 32 blown saves bad. Bochy did help create the problem with the quick hooks and the matchups. It’s both–not enough talent (or, to be accurate, too much reliance on over-the-hill talent) and Bochy not doing a good job with what he did have. For example, he really underused Will Smith down the stretch, and he was pitching great. And obviously there’s no question that Bochy got it brutally wrong with Casilla for way too long.
While Bochy certainly is not absolved entirely, I find it interesting both Righetti and Gardner’s names have not been brought up.
Unless we think Bochy has gone full on dictator around here, I would think they had a hand in the relievers handling, knowing who was prepared or not, etc.
I was a collective failure, that is for sure.
32 blown saves is more than enough proof of that.
I get that he’s known Casilla since he was Jairo Garcia and feels bad for him. I feel a little bad for Casilla, too.
Giants fans are typically very supportive. Go ask the Red Sox or the Phillies or the Yankees about that. But by Sept. 17, they’d (we’d) watched in horror as Casilla was allowed to go out there over and over–four times just in September!–pitch to Jake Lamb, etc., etc. The season was slipping away. The fans in the park were at their limit. I can’t blame them. I’ve been in the park, having spent a couple hundred bucks on tickets, parking, and food, and had a nice day ruined because Bochy gave Casilla too long of a leash (May 2015 was my experience with that). It feels awful. We all know we’re not entitled to a win just because we bought tickets, but we are entitled to see our team and manager give their best effort and make good choices. There’s an obligation there if you’re going to take people’s money and use it to support lifestyles none of us will ever come close to. I’m sorry, but that’s how I feel.
If the fans in the park on Sept. 17 were at the end of their rope, I think Bochy, Casilla, and the front office bear some responsibility for that. Saying that fans who are invested (time, money, etc.) don’t get to be critical is like saying you’re a bad American if you ever criticize how things are going in our country.
You know who else I feel bad for? Lopez and Romo, who also may be at the end of prestigious Giants careers and who actually were part of the meltdown. Blanco, Pagan, and Peavy, who had to leave the park and maybe their time with the Giants on a stunning, sad note. They were ALL good Giants, not just Casilla. And I resent Casilla making himself a major storyline when there are a lot of other people who feel just as as badly as he does, if not worse. To me it just demonstrates the selfishness he displayed all season long.
My take: I wasn’t at that game where fans booed. But I watched the game and I certainly did figuratively boo. But by wrath was not aimed at Casilla, but Bochy for putting Casilla into the situation where recent history had shown him repeatedly failing. So I can’t speak for those fans who booed, but I think it goes higher than Casilla. Bochy, IMO, should have eased him into 6/7/8 inning roles and see if Casilla could get relaxed and confident again. Also, I believe it is probably correct that Casilla would have been booed again last night and that Bochy was saving him for the road.
p.s., Bochy did the same thing when Huff’s end came. Kept sending him out there to fail.
It is ridiculous. It’s certainly true that people shouldn’t be sending nasty personal tweets to baseball players. But criticizing Casilla, or even booing him, that’s what people do to performers who do not perform. It’s part of the business. May one fan in a hundred really means it. The vast majority are simply unhappy with the performance. That’s all.
And, for the record, the only thing I’ve ever said about Casilla seriously is that he should have stopped being the closer after the Baltimore game.
Casilla’s not on Twitter, anyway.
You baseball social scientist need figure out if you have impact, or are just impacted. Having said that, the therapy of narrative construction is a typical way humans explain the fact that sh!t just happens.
Agreed. An infinite number of Bochys typing on an infinite number of typewriters would’ve eventually come up with the perfect bullpen solution
I haven’t felt as sick, disgusted, humiliated, humbled and confused as I did last night and all day today since the Raiders were pummeled by Gruden and the Tampa Bay Bucs in 2002. Unadulterated misery at its finest. Yes. Last night was brutal. The Giants exposed the Cubs in a way that that no other teams have been able to do. Good game planned pitching and the ability to pitch will beat them time and again. Their line up is nothing special at all. Problem was we exposed ourselves.
Really good write-up GreekGiant. Agree with pretty much all of it. Someone commented to me last night that Bochy had a very complicated plan for the 9th that simply failed to execute. The person was defending Bochy. My reply was that I agreed but that it was over-complicated and caused the lack of fluidity and calmness that you mentioned. It created a pitch-well-or-be-banished atmosphere. I much rather would have seen the inning given to someone like Law or Strickland and then leave them in, even if there’s a little trouble, and let them calm down (in the case of Law). Even if you wanted to use Romo (which I disagree with) then start him at the beginning of the inning and give him the inning.
Also agree the other parts. Enjoyed watching the Giants make their late season and early playoff foray and just wish the fun and enjoyment could have lasted longer.
The hit that Law allowed was inches from being an out. He’s great against lefties. I know he pitched Monday but I think he could’ve been left in.
Bochy outsmarted himself.
Yes. There was room for a pitcher going in to work with.
Nice in theory, but how many times did that backfire and Bochy was reamed for leaving a guy in one batter too long?
Baseball fans are a fickle lot. If the strategy works he’s a genius (see Mon). If it fails, he’s a doddering old fool. No matter what strategy he used last night, if it failed, he’s going to be second guessed.
If he stays with moore and he blows it, should have pulled him. If he goes with and stays with Smith and he blows it, should have stayed with Moore or gone to Law.
Monday and Tuesday he used the bullpen differently. He wasn’t swapping pitchers out after each non-out on Monday, that I recall.
Well, different situation with extra innings. And guys were getting the job done.
Not that different. But anyway, I was just bringing up Monday because you cited it as an example. They were both important playoff games. Romo didn’t get the job done Monday and Bochy left him in for another inning after he blew the save in the 9th.
I’ve been consistent in criticizing Bochy when he does the one-non-hit-and-you’re-pulled style of over-managing.
Nope. On the contrary, he let Law go two innings and even Romo go two innings AFTER Romo blew the save.
There’s a part of me that hopes that last night hovers with the players throughout the off-season and the memory really ticks them off. I’d like to see them come back with chips on their shoulders and a new-found intense fire burning within them as they terrorize the league, series by series.
(While I’m wishing for things, my daughter would really like a pony…I just want someone to clean up after it.)
It will. Competitive bunch. Quiet, but competitive
I think that’s why the Cubs and Royals got under so many peoples’ skins. They appeared to be over the top celebrating for every hit and/or run. Our guys probably do it too, and we just see it as more sedate through our fandom filters. Or maybe they don’t do it enough and need that spark / fire.
Is there any Giants’ rival that doesn’t get under the skin of Giants fans?
No, everyone pisses us off. 🙂
Eh, you could say that about any fanbase: Is there any ____ rival that doesn’t get under the skin of ______ fans?
Cardinals, Reds, Pirates, Mets….
Matt Holliday? Mat Latos? The Pirates and Mets were one gamers. Not enough time.
Well, Holliday likely ended Scutaro’s career and sent him on a path of pain and surgeries. I’d say some grudges are justified there. Latos is just a jerk, and we have those happy Posey grand slam memories to keep us warm.
I’ll give you Holliday, but elebrating a big home run doesn’t really compare.
No. I have no problem with that, either.
There are quotes from the beat writers about Posey making sure to go to Romo and Lopez after the game and telling them to remember all the good times. It occurred to him that this could be the end of the line for these two great Giants.
There is nothing about him consoling or having a similar conversation with Casilla. Considering how Casilla shook him and Brown off and showed visible frustration with them, you have to think Buster had his own opinions and feelings about that dynamic. I wonder how much (or if) he discussed it with Bochy over this season.
I thought they had (HAD) a better relationship. After every save, during the handshake line, the two of them were always side-by-side talking about something. Looked like it was about what worked or didn’t work during the last at bats. Maybe it was more along with lines of “stop shaking me off.” I always liked that watching them do that after wins…not sure why.
I read that Posey was consoling Casilla in an article Carl Steward wrote.
I would bet he did. Posey is Pure Leader, and doesn’t cherry pick like that, IMO
I think he probably didn’t have enough energy left to console Casilla, as a result of being exhausted from catching.
Love him or leave him, Baggs’ examination of the ninth is a good read.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/12/extra-baggs-unspooling-bruce-bochys-choices-in-a-ninth-inning-that-wrecked-the-giants-season/
The Giants bullpen blew up in the ninth inning, as many of us expected it would — certainly after the second pitching change — as it has 32 times during the season, and the Giants lost a baseball game. It’s that simple. But writers have to write.
And readers…
You ready to put this puppy to bed, Ed?
I don’t think I’ve spent too much time analyzing the ninth, check my feed.
Too bad there isn’t a game on tonight.
Torture.
Hey you had a great post that started with “Giants need a power bat and a closer” and went on to detail the secret to success back in ’10 with a nod to Aubrey Huff. They could sure use somebody having the kind of season that Huff did in ’10. Could Belt take an even bigger step forward next year and increase his career RBI high? Crack 20+ HRs?
I don’t know about Belt. I think he will be “better” but a problem we’ve had with a lot of guys is simply staying healthy.
But what I meant by Huff is, there’s a lot of players out there who have potential and aren’t being paid much and we just have to find that kind of a guy and put him in left field.
There’s a lot of ways to play this for the front office. But I’m pretty sure they are aware of the lack of a power bat, the lack of a closer, and the sizable amount of deadwood on the payroll. And by the way I am not complaining about that deadwood, it’s payback for the 3 rings.
I think it would be a bad idea to trade the people we have now. Developing the minors, and judicious use of free agency seems to me the way to go. We’re not far from being a perennial playoff club. Shoot, we just finished our playoff run! We just need to incrementally improve, and get some breaks next time.
And, no, I don’t think we can reasonably expect rings every second year, or third year, or what have you. Getting to the tournament is what counts. Look at the Braves: Perennial playoff team, but only _one_ ring …..
Huff, Pat Burrell, Juan Uribe, Michael Morse…yeah, let’s find one of those.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that their championship window will do some serious closing after 2018 season.
I don’t see any alternate bearing hitters on the FA market ready to yield – as was Huff coming into SF.
Well, after 2018 the window will definitely be closing on our current roster. But that’s where smart drafting and trading of minor pieces comes in. I frankly don’t know what it takes to make a club a playoff team year after year after year. The Cards were in the NLCS for how many — four years running? And they changed their cast of characters a lot more than we did. Then the Braves in the 90’s, the Yankees in the ’90’s ….. where are they now?
Just have to keep getting good players. And I think the Giants have a lot of good players. They just have a few holes.
And I don’t see the Cubs as the best team in the NL, and I don’t think they will be winning several rings, either. They put their roster together to win for once. They have two legit stars in the lineup — Rizzo and Bryant — and the rest are either old or have mediocre OPS.
Their rotation is very good, but they’re all in their ’30’s, except for Hendricks.
I don’t see dynasty there, either. Or in LA, or Washington, or NY, or STL, or wherever.
Baez may very well be a budding star having his breakout. Russell is very talented as well. Don’t forget Schwarber who missed the season. They have plenty of talent in their farm system and may make a move for young, controlled pitcher. They are positioned to be an NL Dynasty and the Dodgers may be able to compete given the status of their farm and young talent on their roster.
Baez does a couple of crowd pleasing stunts — letting a thrown ball carry his glove to the runner, or rotating a bounced throw to first that sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t — but I think he’s a media darling and not any legendary second baseman in the making. And I think Panik is better anyway.
Sample on Schwarber is too small, but his rookie 842 OPS is no big deal compared to Puig who had 925 (and how has he worked out?). By comparison, McCovey had a rookie OPS of 1085, and he didn’t really establish himself as a star until 1963.
I’m just not buying either the Cubs or the Dodgers as the Big Bad Wolf who will dominate for the rest of the decade. They are built to win right now, not to be a dynasty. And I don’t think they have the players for a dynasty. At least not yet. But we’ll see.
Baez is 23 BTW, Russell 22. Baez has tremendous bat speed and showed a precipitous drop in his K rate – and the defensive skills are evident.
As is his terrible attitude. What a punk.
Schwarber is a softball player who is destined for the AL and a DH life.
and you are basing this off what size sample ? 🙂 Wheel Sea, Tab.
The sample size of ” oh, shit! That is a slow , clumsy dude that can hit”
I didnt see anything more from Belt this year than last or even 3 years ago other than about 100 more at bats. Otherwise, he looked more or less like the same player he’s always been. Lots of strikeouts, doubles, walks and great pitches fouled off every at bat. Streaky. If he was better, maybe only marginally so. And that’s only a maybe. I think what you saw this year is what you get, for better or worse. No steps forward.
You may be right. Tracking his wRC+ would indicate that. The main difference like you said this year is getting those ABs to bump up the RBI total and the pretty out of this world walk-rate.
Pencil him in for more of the same in 2017 I suppose.
Well, he had twice as many walks as his previous career high, first Giant since Bonds over 100. And he had more than 60 extra-base hits (over 40 doubles), his second time hitting that number. Posey has never had 60 XBHs in a season. Belt also had an OBP of .394, best in his career by quite a bit. He’s streaky, but he had a good year.
This will be debated and argued for years…just like Dusty’s moves in game 6
Well, it will be a painful memory for years, as was Game Six. I don’t think I ever debated the substance of what happened in that game. But it was similar. Our bullpen just couldn’t hold the other team.
It happens. Luckily, it didn’t happen in 2010, 2012, or 2014 …..
Maybe not. It feels awful now, but it’s really more like the end of the NLDS in 2003, when they didn’t have a pinch-runner for JT Snow and the series ended with him being thrown out at the plate. Irritating, but you get over it. It was an elimination game in the first round. We might not have won Game 5 or done much in the next round(s), either.
2002…we were five outs away from winning the first World Series in SF history. That will always be the worst because we wondered if we’d ever see a champion in SF. Even if the exact same thing happens in the future, there’s still 2010-12-14 to comfort us.
I will forever feel he grossly over managed that inning. I like Bochy, and believe he was the right guy to lead these guys to the glory we have experienced…but he had a tough year culminated with a panicky inning that crushed the season into dust.
I think he over-managed it too. Giants might have met their fate anyway in a later series. But it sure seems like this one was set up with an good chance to win game 5, had they arrived there.
Season of coconuts and nutcrackers vanished into thin air.
From Baggarly’s latest:
Much of the closed-door discussions went through Lopez, a valued leader in the clubhouse who was a co-recipient of the Willie Mac Award along with Brandon Crawford. Lopez was a shepherd for a young bullpen that made plenty of on-the-job training mistakes, and a liaison between them and a coaching staff that decided to play matchup-heavy throughout the season.
The piece also specifies that Posey also talked to Casilla, in addition to Romo and Lopez.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/12/giants-bullpen-mainstays-romo-lopez-casilla-ponder-an-uncertain-future/
will take a bit to shake this one off – bet the players and boch + co will wear this for may weeks to come but hopefully when the 2016 baseball season is well put to rest the Giants will enjoy their time with family and friends, look to the new year and the promise and joy of another spring training. For me I just want to thank all of you for another great year of baseball talk and camaraderie and a HUGE note of appreciation to GG for not just saving our board but making it so much better. thank you one and all — have a great off season and holidays with family and friends.
In no time at all our calendars will turn, the new year’s champagne will be uncorked and we’ll be lucky enough to look forward to yet another baseball season in our lives.
Good night Allen
I wish Belt didn’t crowd the plate so much because he sees too many pitches in so he can hit into the shift. If he’d back off a bit he could get his arms extended a bit more and his power could be put to better use.
We just watched a feature on “robo umps”calling balls and strikes on HBO. So interesting. They had a Yale professor crunch numbers, and here’s what he found:
–88% of the calls are correct, BUT
–many of those are easy calls. When he looked at close/borderline calls, 31% of them were wrong.
–There is bias: On average, the home team gets eight wrong calls in its favor while the road team gets three. In Game 7 of the 2011 World Series, the home Cardinals got 14 wrong calls in its favor compared to 3 for the visiting Texas Rangers.
They showed footage from that Sonoma semi-pro game where someone fed the calls into the home plate umpire’s earpiece (Eric Byrnes, playing umpire for a day. He’s very passionate about this issue.). None of the players or coaches could tell the difference, and it was very positively reviewed.
The umpires are vitriolically opposed to anything like this, and the current players are afraid to speak out for fear of umpire retaliation during games. No current player would speak on the record for this piece.
Driverless car zone. I’m all for it
On average, there are 8 wrong ball/strike calls in every major league game. Can you imagine if there were eight wrong calls/replays on the bases?
I wonder if the umps could set their own parameters, such as a tight zone, or the low pitch, off the plate an inch or two, etc. and maybe they could adjust it 1/2″ at the top of an inning. Give them a little more ownership so they don’t feel useless. Consistency would be the new order.
Eff em. They’re useless
Human error is intrinsic to the game of baseball, as anyone who has been around the game, played the game, coached the game, etc will tell you.
I’ve been very clear and boisterous about this. Taking the pitch calls away from human beings will change the game and not for the better. The very fact “error” records are kept is because human error is part of the course of the game.
Most of the individuals get so upset and argue so much about calls and “fixes” have never played or been involved on the field. Going to games as a fan does not count btw.
That’s why robots don’t play the game.
A machine calling pitches is not baseball, there are video games for that.
One of the points they made is that now it’s an issue because high-definition cameras and instant technology have made it immediately apparent to fans at home and to analysts how wrong umpires are getting it. When we didn’t know any better than the guy behind the plate, then it was just a matter of opinion. Now there’s actual evidence of how often they get it wrong.
I think an error rate of 31% on close calls is pretty damn significant. It changes the game. I don’t want umpires changing outcomes. I want the players to control outcomes.
but that’s my point, I think it takes people who have actually been part of the game, in a game, etc to see this.
31% sounds like a lot sure, but over the course of the game and hundreds of pitches, it is part of the natural course of a game.
That is hard for an observer, a fan, a writer, to see that.
Only those in the game realize that the strike zone changes pitcher to pitcher and hitter to hitter. It is not mean to be “perfect”. Pitchers understand this, have dealt with this for generations.
What now, the game must become more “clean” and predictable to appease some fans?
I’d love for guys like Tom Seaver or Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal to speak on this.
Nothing makes me stop listening more than “you didn’t play so you don’t know.” If I were in charge, any commenter who ever says this would get one warning and then be permanently banned. This is a fan blog, not a baseball academy.
There are certain commenters on here–I don’t have to mention names–that I just tune out 100% of the time because they say this kind of crap. If that person told me “today is Wednesday” or “it’s October” I wouldn’t listen because they’re such pretentious jerks.
Sorry, E, you don’t actually do this much, so it’s not personal. But it’s a pet peeve with me.
But as to the issue: It’s just an interesting thing I saw on TV. People can have different opinions on it. No need to be condescending.
I respect your opinion and want to see the special.
And I too have issues with the umpires and the lack of accountability at times.
And while I did preface my point about sounding condescending (lol) I still stand true to my belief that there are certain parts of the game that are part of the very fabric of the game, why I love it so much.
It’s a game played by people that are not always going to be perfect. All these rules to make it so clean and pure dilute the final product.
Fair enough. I’m sure baseball lifers would hold a range of opinions on this point, too. Eric Byrnes, who had an 11-year major league career, was extremely passionate about it and talked about how intensely frustrating it was to him as a player to have ABs taken away and games changed. I’m sure there are others who feel the same (and those who don’t).
He doesn’t know baseball like Efrain does.
Pretty sure Efrain is so vehemently opposed to robo umps because he knows Belt would get even more of a boost from them.
I like the human element in the umpires and it took me a long time to accept the video replay. But I will say this like I already said, really bad umpires are lending a lot of endorsement and credibility to the robo zone in this day and age of technology.
The instant replay on slides where the runner comes off bag for nano-second is fucking stupid. So is the slide rule at 2nd!!!
Especially fkn stupid when they get the replay wrong. Twice in the Cubs series. Definitely conspiracy shit there.
I said it after it happened, but the most egregious and glaring example of possible conspiracy shit was the replay after we turned the DP in the 13th Monday night. I get it, they had to look at two things, whether the ball beat him to the base and whether Belt kept his foot on the bag. But both were clear. Very. How long did they look at it? 5 minutes? More? It really seemed like they scrutinized it for as long as possible trying to overturn it until they eventually admitted defeat. That was a frigging joke.
Yeah. I thought they were working on some kind of fabricated lie but just couldn’t get the words right. Even tho we knew he was out, the threat of them overturning it was still there. First base ump probably got reprimanded.
Hell, even the second base umpire said Span trapped that ball late Monday nite, which wasn’t even close to appearing like a trap, and which they had to overturn. I don’t think I’m overstating when I say that not a single call went in our favor. The only ones we “won” were irrefutable and had to be decided by replay. It was brutal.
Wait a minute…I think Bochy may have been the key to the whole conspiracy.
I’ve always liked the human element umpires bring to the game. Doesn’t mean you have to like them. They are a necessary calamity to the game.
But they’re not necessary anymore. The game has changed in other ways. Why not get this right?
I don’t mind an ump having a ‘personalized zone’, it’s consistency you look for.
I do. Why should the umpire get to put his own biases on the game? The strike zone is the strike zone, or it should be. Pitchers throw to it. Batters swing or take to it. It’s not fair if one guy’s biases get to screw everyone else up. Why is that a good thing?
One of the things fans love most about the game is bad calls on balls and strikes. Without those, no one would probably attend a game in person or watch on TV.
I don’t know……… maybe they should intensify umpire school? Put out a better human product. I like pitchers who can dial into an umps zone. I think the bad umpires lend credibility to this notion, but there are still some good one left.
The bottom line is that human eyes/brains/reflexes just can’t get it right enough. There’s no training that’s going to fix that. I assume they train them pretty thoroughly now.
I do wonder if, as a professional writer and professional writing instructor, you view the game of baseball through a lens where baseball is a written composition; and you see elements of the game that require editing; and that a game, a season, and a roster should be more perfect; that flaws should be ironed out, and that the final composition should be exemplary in its structure and flow.
Just a passing thought/armchair psychology 🙂
I think everyone should strive to be the best they’re capable of being, whether it’s a student writer, a teacher, an agricultural researcher, a baseball player, a manager, a beat writer, or an umpire. That will be different for everyone. Kelby Tomlinson is never going to be Kris Bryant, but he should be the best Kelby Tomlinson he can be. The Giants’ bullpen this year wasn’t going to be the 2015 Royals’ bullpen, but they didn’t realize their potential, either.
My motto in life and work is “You can always get better.” It really is.
Excellent motto. And baseball models life in many respects. However, it often unfair to compare the expectations for the success/failure ratio in real life with those on the baseball diamond.
They need to break the union as it stands. They retain and promote terrible umps because of tenure.
Efrain, I don’t think I can give you enough thumbs up for this post. I’m gonna say this is your best post ever, not that you haven’t had good ones before.
Down with the machines. Down with technocracy. I want to throw away cell phones and their accompanying bills and go play in the sandlot – throw brush backs, slide hard at 2nd, knock the ball loose from the catcher, form a handshake line at the end of the game 🙂
Scout, thank you for the post.
It truly believe, while it may sound condescending, that it takes someone who has actually played the game, coached, been on the field, been an umpire, etc, to really see the game as it was meant to be played by from its origin.
Already, as you mentioned, things we grew up accepting like a brush back pitch or a good hard slide to jar the ball out of the infielders glove or knock the catcher on his ass all meant something.
Fans are so used to everything being perfect and predictable and neat, that eventually they will take the soul out of the game.
Hell, why even have pitchers eventually right? A robot can most likely throw 100% strikes, hell with these no talent pitchers!!!
😉
Yes. It sounds condescending.
Because it is…
yep! 😉
I think we absolutely need human umpires. It’s part of the game. However, I’m sick of the same umpires being listed by the players as the worst in baseball. I’m sick of seeing the same guys stick to their “style” and miss calls in the same manner over and over. There’s absolutely no accountability for these guys and that has to change. Just because you’ve been umpiring for years doesn’t mean you get to stick around. It’s ridiculous.
I agree with the management and control of umpires, perhaps have a third party oversee the umpires union, review system, etc.
It seems like the root of the problem, and it’s not just MLB, I know the NFL and NBA do the same, is they reward highly rated umpires/officials with post season assignments but there doesn’t seem to be much in terms of disciplining/ousting poorly rated ones. It isn’t the frigging Supreme Court, these aren’t lifetime appointments.
As I once heard someone say in a different arena: “Some people never get any better at their jobs.” So true. Years of experience are not meaningless, but they also don’t mean someone is growing and getting better. Some people get complacent and arrogant.
When did you play?
I’ve played a ton in my life. Coached a ton. Even umpired some.
There is a growing problem with umps: they are getting worse. They are getting defiant. They are getting lazy because of replay.
“Human error” is, as you say, intrinsic to the game. What’s happening to umpires, however, is a problem that is ripping at the fabric of the game.
You like modernization of bat flips, but you want the get-off-my-lawn world of lousy umpire mistakes because it’s part of the game?
Matthew I hear you, but I’m sure from Ott to Ruth, to Dimaggio to Mays to Aaron, all had issues with umps and complained and thought they were a bunch of dirty low down (get the picture?).
It’s what it, it’s cyclical, it will be better and it will be worse.
But it’s getting measurably worse…. If they aren’t going to have automated strike zones, then they need to penalize the bad eggs.
Agreed. Why should baseball try to improve? Your thinking should also be applied to medicine. People today are too coddled without having to worry about Smallpox, Polio and things like that. Modern improvements in medicine ruined it for everyone. Death is part of the game of life, always has been.
On this HBO piece, they interviewed retired umpire Jerry Crawford. He was scathing and dismissive. He also said that he was given a floppy disk after every game with a report on his ball/strike calls so he could self-evaluate. He said he threw it in the trash immediately and never watched it.
It was clear he was all about his power trip and not about the integrity of the game. The umpires union is out of control and they think they’re in charge. I don’t know why MLB doesn’t do something about it. I really don’t.
If I’m ever wondering about anything in life, the first thing I always ask myself is “has Efrain been clear and boisterous about this topic?” If he has, I find out what he thinks and then do the opposite.
The human element of the game is the players. Nobody should wax poetically about an umpire getting a call wrong because he’s human.
Span- will be back, will play CF, will lead off
Belt- hard to believe that there are some who still don’t get it-he’s a top tier 1st baseman
Posey-nagging injuries held him back.Time to cut back his workload. Need a better back up
Pence-no worries he’ll have is pre-injury numbers
Crawford-same as this year
Nunez- his speed actually plays best in the 6 spot. and it’s a much better RBI slot than the 1 The question is where he will play. Gillaspie will undoubtedly get a chance to show if he can be regular at 3rd base. So Nunez might play 3rd or LF, or both.
Panik- ,285 17 HR .780 OPS
EA- unlikely to be here IMO.
Gillaspie- will be given a chance to earn 3rd base job
KT- needs to bulk up. Might get a chance at 3rd or LF
Blanco- Contract year became nightmare year. Might still end up here. Lots of competition
Parker/Mac-will be in tough. The bloom is off the rose.
Gorkys- good defense. Questionable at the plate.Not a given.
Brown’- need to find better .
Wow…I agree with every damn point you made, pal
“Agree” is not the same as “like,” right? I agree Span will be back, lead off, and play CF. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I think Span will be better next year.
His “throwing” arm will be the test. I really, really hope Scout was right in that he’ll clean out some mess in there and improve. He can field. He can hit. He can run….he needs to throw to be a viable CF.
I hope so. We’re stuck with him, so let’s hope for the best. Maybe another year post-hip surgery will make a difference, but he will also be in his age-33 season.
I just looked up his stats for this year. His OPS+ and WAR were comparable to Kelby Tomlinson, who had 120 PAs to Span’s 662. He was the 14th worst CF in the majors defensively out of 17 ranked. His DRS in the OF was -7. Now, that’s better than Pagan’s -20 in CF last year, but it’s still really, really bad. He only had 19 stolen base attempts and only 12 stolen bases. And he ended up hitting .200 with a .600 OPS in the leadoff spot.
He had a bad year all-around and he was one of the worst CFs in the game. Those are facts.
I’m not a Span fan….trying to be nice about him.
2017 is a new year–I will hope for the best, too. It’s curious to me how some want to pretend he had a good year. He did not.
i suppose that I am one of the ” some”. I never said he had a good y,ear, i said that he had a good second half. As for the “pretend’ thing ,I’ll ignore it, Lefty, I really think that once he was in your doghouse, he was staying there regardless.
Fresh start for 2017, I promise. You can hold me to that. I know you will. 🙂
It’s all good.
Also fact is that he was much better in the second half.
.287 BA .336 OBP still to low,.429 slg 765 OPS.Those numbers are very comparable to Pagan’s 2012. and for the full year, he hit more HR’s and drove in more. Pagan had better numbers in some categories, but all in all, there’s reason to be optimistic about next year, IMO.
Clearly, there was nothing Denard Span could have done in the the final weekend and the playoffs to save face in Grecoville.
BTW, his DRS, actually went down about a point after the break.That is not a minor thing, usually it goes up.But look, I understand that many will never change their mind.Everybody probably has a player like that.Morse was one of mine.
I’m sure people would change their minds if he actually played better.
He dd in the second half. I showed the numbers. But I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think
And then he had a poor September. A season in 162 games long. His full body of work wasn’t very good. Oops, sorry. I forgot that you don’t give a rat’s ass what I think. My mistake.
He had that 30+ hitless AB’S in the first week of September, that obviously drove his numbers down.But you are playing a tired game- dismissing what does’t support your preconceived notion. And you ignore the huge hits down the stretch. You have been just a troll for quite a while now. Sad.
As to changing minds, on one level it’s better to see you poor schmucks in total denial
Good example.
Probably not a lot of Trump voters that planning on switching over at this juncture.
Here’s a doozy. Politico did a poll of Republicans who are likely to vote in the general election. 8 percent of those who saw the 2005 tape said it made them look more favorably towards Trump
He’ll probably improve as he closes in on his mid-30s, even though he’s already had a drop off in production. Around 42, or so, I really expect him to start tearing it up.
I know…I’m grasping
Sorry, you do have to ilke it.
You are getting verrrry sleepy.you can’t keep your head up. Soon I will clap my hands to awaken and you will remember nothing. But you will like Span..
Much better than average. B+
17 HRs for Panik? Awesome!
Given Nunez has played LF before, you may be on to something.
No Nunez in left. How many years am I going to have to scream to get someone with power to hit home runs. Reasons!!
Pence – Getting old and is breaking down.
Posey – Getting worn down. See Yadi
Belt – Is fine but don’t expect 30 bombs from him ever.
Crawford – see Belt
Panik – See Belt
We need a number 4 threat that can protect Posey. STOP WITH THE SLAP HITTING LEFT FIELDERS.
You will scream at me exactly zero years. See ya.
How weird when the day comes that umpires are an appearance grade.
Jim Harbaugh stimulates the Michigan economy. http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2016/10/11/harbaugh-avails-steakhouse-deal/91927976/
Giants need a Daniel Murphy or Josh Donaldson in their lineup, or a Mel Ott, or a Goose Gossage in the pen…
Dodgers have to contend with Max and they are going to run out Rich Hill on 3 days rest, then probably the 20 year old phenom behind him. I suppose the Cubs are anticipating Tanner Roark in Game 1 of the NLCS.
Why stop there? Why can’t we have an Aaron? Or a Koufax? Or a Deer?
Deer and Kirby will kill it. What’s happenin’ Bro/fellow 70’s child star?
Is Sincere in your trunk? Let him out, I posted a Slayer song pretty much just for him.
He is. I’m piping in some soothing tunes until he calms down. Some Gerry Rafferty and Gordon Lightfoot. He’s still shrieking like a banshee but I’m pretty sure, deep down, he’s enjoying himself.
Pipe in some Gary and Union Gap while you’re at it.
DJ Venison doesn’t take requests. Now pipe down.
Just don’t pump any Abba… That shit is his Viagra. The double album of greatest hits means you better call a doctor …
Hahahahaha. First album, second grade, ABBA. No wonder I like that Pennsylvania Pimp so much.
I love when you guys are benevolently talking behind my back and I see it. I am actually feeling teary right now. No joke at all.
Yeah but do you feel teary eyed with Kerry King punches you in the nose with some wicked guitar riffs – dude, Seasons in the Abyss!
Yeah, son!! One of Lombardo’s best drum fills ever at 1:12 in that song will rip Anthony Rizzo’s head off.
and you know what down his neck – I apologize if this locker room talk offends anyone.
Ahahahahahahaha oh my that was good.
My baaaaad (says I, sheepishly)
Mixed animal metaphors are my fave.
Heavy petting zoo is a fun family affair as well.
One of my favorite songs EVER! You are getting a clotheline tonight in your dreams courtesy of TheSincere copyright 2016. It’s the right move for California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsLrnylZheE
Oh my gosh ! This is the song that I am always wondering which is the one with that awesome sax riff and some cool guitar! thanks guys!
You can’t beat the children of the 70s, son.
there’s another song with a sax riff that I don’t know the name of but think is great also.
It’s more of a happy, walking on clouds riff, one that’s pretty easy to whistle along with.
bah dah da da dah
bah dah da do dah…
I know that one…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaoLU6zKaws
Ha ha ha. Not the one. Keep trying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqeKV2UYq1Q
nope. We’ll get there, champ, sooner or later.
Yes to this. And “Sundown” by Lightfoot.
My friend Jane, who sung backup vocals for the Prince tribute we did back in May, met Mr. Lightfoot last week at a show near Pittsburgh. Posted a pic of the two of em. Pretty epic. Until another friend of mine from Pittsburgh, posted the same night that he thought ole Gordie was horrible and asked for his money back lol.
Do? A deer? A female deer? Re? A drop of golden sun?
I thought yesterday, ok, I’m gonna take a break from the blog for awhile, recalibrate, lick my wounds, make sure I calm down before I lace someone with my acerbic wit, but how can I leave all this?
Hooked on a Feelin’
Ooga chucka
I still can’t believe we’re not playing tomorrow night. It’d make it so much easier if I could just know the score if it had been played. Even if we won. I’m serious. Just so we could KNOW. Then sit back and say, I knew it. I knew the Cubbies were gonna choke it again.
For the record, we would’ve won, right?
Easy
HELL yes. We had em. Absolutely HAD em. And they knew it.
lick the salt lick, dog, I mean deer.
I hear you!
Nope. Guest post season. Get on it
Huh?
write a guest post. I just sent mine to GG. Lefty, Surf Maui and Per Speier had theirs published…this is how we learn more about our dear (not “deer”) friends (not that we don’t want to know Rob….)
Ya old softie. I miss all of you. Believen getting the shaft has nothing to do with our happiness, and we shall return like an orange and black cannonball of love.
Well, Mel’s been dead for awhile, so pass on him. Can we get Josh Donaldson, though? Remember when the Giants almost got Daniel Murphy at the trade deadline in 2014? Instead they had Uggla for a weekend and finally handed the job to Joe Panik. I’d still rather have Joe and his bright young future, but–Murphy’s been something this past year.
PJ loves him some dead pull hitters, but I’m not sure this is what he means!
If you get a chance, see if you can pull up the video of Donaldson talk swing mechanics with De Ro on MLB Network
Magic
I SAW IT!! The rubberband. I was inspired. I might go take some hacks out back. Giants need a guy like that that just gets after it in the batters box – balance, sees ball, vicious hack !
Dream on , dream on …
What’s the deal with crazy clowns? I mean, I’m a clown, I’ve been to clown school, I’m just not a menacing clown.
Nothing wrong with clowns. It is an invented phobia. When I was a kid, I loved clowns. Then came “It.” And John Wayne Gacy. But it didn’t ruin it for me. Still love clowns. They look like The Joker. And I love The Joker.
I just had a crazy thought: Could Baltimore be willing to part ways with their closer Zach Britton, if in return they got offers for starting pitching, which they sorely lack?
Could giving up Samardzija, Okert, Mac, and Trevor Brown be enough to pry away Britton and Mychal Givens, another solid right handed reliever, from Baltimore? Or would the Giants have to include Ty Blach in there as well to have a legitimate shot at this trade? I think Giants FO should call in about Britton’s trade value and go after him this offseason if Baltimore is willing to entertain some offers as long as they don’t ask for our untouchables (Bumgarner, Cueto, Moore, the entire infield, Pence)
Britton wouldn’t look too bad in a Giants uniform and the young guys in our pen would benefit tremendously (Osich comes to mind) watching Britton dominate with the one-seam sinker that he so often used this season.
If we threw in Posey, Belt and Madbum with the ones you mentioned, I’d bet they’d go for it.
You have to give up someone(s) you REALLY don